Debunking Economics - the podcast

A listener (Doug) left a comment on YouTube saying I assume Phil intends to play "devil's advocate" when he speaks as though taxes are necessary for money issuance by governments with sovereign currencies. He’s worried that it might confuse new listeners to the podcast. So this week, Phil and Steve get stuck into the more contentious side of MMT – how government spending creates money, and bond issuance has limited impact on that. It depends on who is buying them. They discuss how government spending differs from household spending funded by a bank loan. Consider it a catch-up for new list...

Phil happened upon a book to Australian economist Joshua Gans (and Andrew Leigh) called Innovation & Inequality – how to create a future that is more Star Trek than Terminator. He discusses some of the concepts with Steve, including whether companies responsible for the creative destruction of other industries should be made to pay. As Phil puts it, if I burnt down a shop, I would possibly go to prison. But if I make that shop go out of business -and all the shops around it – because I happen to run Amazon, I face no consequences. It’s progress. But I the next c...

Andy Burnham is now the British Prime Minister but, Phil asks, aside from convening cabinet meetings in the north, will he do anything different to his predecessor. No, he will follow the same neoclassical economics approach as all Prime Ministers, with an obsession for balancing the books, rather than developing creative outcomes to distribute wealth and grow the economy. In short, it’s a slightly more attractive head, stuck on the same ugly body, he says. So what about Count Binface’s contribution to UK politics? Steve’s verdict: well, he might be trapped inside a dustbin, but its better than b...

This week Phil and Steve talk about the staggering accumulation of capital, which has ratcheted up since the pandemic. In the US the top 0.1 percent of companies hold 88 percent of all corporate assets. In 2017, the top 10 S&P companies accounted for 20% of the market cap of all 500 companies, now they account for 37%. And its not because these companies are good. It’s because the nature of products today gives them a stranglehold on their customers, however bad their offering. Steve calls it the ‘shitification’ of business and Phil managed to get Microsoft’s AI to admit just how bad their own prod...

This week Phil and Steve confront the mathematical and environmental reality of a "zero growth" future, sparked by a debate over the deflationary traps of finite currency systems like Bitcoin. Steve thoroughly dismantles standard neoclassical theories of "decoupling"—the fantasy that global economies can indefinitely expand their wealth while reducing energy consumption—exposing how mainstream economic models trivialise energy as a minor production input. By presenting real-world data showing a linear, lockstep relationship between global energy use and gross world product over the last 50 years, the hosts argue that modern capital is merely a conduit for turning energy into useful work...

How much longer can the United States rely on the US dollar to dominate the global financial system, and what happens when the cracks finally start to show? In this week's Debunking Economics podcast, Phil Dobbie and Professor Steve Keen travel back to the 1944 Bretton Woods conference to revisit John Maynard Keynes's ultimate lost argument. Steve details how Keynes's visionary proposal for a global clearing union and an international currency—the Bancor—was explicitly designed to penalise both hoarding surplus nations and debt-ridden deficit nations, spreading wealth to developing countries and preventing destructive "beggar-thy-neighbour" tariff wars. By rejecting Keynes's framework in f...

Phil and Steve confront the global surge in anti-immigration rhetoric and right-wing political momentum, tracing its roots to the structural failures of neoliberalism rather than the actions of migrants themselves. Steve dissects how decades of fiscal paranoia, deregulation, and slashed public spending on health, welfare, and education systematically eroded working-class security, turning migrants into easy scapegoats for falling real wages and housing shortages. They evaluate how corporate-led migration has been historically weaponized by business elites to depress labour costs at the expense of local training, while contrasting the economic benefits of "capital deepening" through technology against raw "capital broadening" through...

Steve and Phil critique our systemic over-reliance on Gross Domestic Product (GDP) as the definitive baseline for comparing global economies and measuring societal well-being. The discussion underscores a fundamental flaw in neoclassical modeling: while GDP measures raw industrial output, it completely fails to reflect actual public welfare due to stark differences in income distribution, unpriced volunteer and domestic labour, and varying national structures of public service delivery. For instance, a per-capita GDP comparison artificially flatters the United States over Europe or China simply because American citizens are forced to spend massive out-of-pocket sums on privatised health care, transport, and education—es...

This week Phil and Steve dig into the storm of controversy over Australia's new budget rules targeting property speculators. The Labor government has scaled back negative gearing and abolished the 50% capital gains tax discount for established dwellings—major tax shelters that have historically rewarded people for gambling on rising asset prices rather than working productive jobs. Steve demonstrates that the country's absurd house-price-to-income ratio is driven entirely by the acceleration of private mortgage debt, heavily fueled by decades of destructive government policies designed to protect the wealth of baby boomers. Phil notes that while these changes may discourage real estate ho...

This week Phil challenges Steve on how the futures market handles terminal risk, pointing out that oil prices slope downward over time simply because traders blindly assume the Strait of Hormuz will reopen. Steve agrees and tears into the financial sector, explaining that modern pricing models dangerously mistake unquantifiable "uncertainty" for manageable "risk" by using flawed Gaussian distributions that erase the possibility of catastrophic, extreme events. Phil notes that the financial system's obsession with short-term hedging actually prevents behavior change and masks physical scarcity, leading corporations to scrap vital emergency buffers like PPE or fuel reserves in the name of...

This week Phil and Steve dismantle the structural shift of the global economy toward a permanent state of debt dependence. Following a critique of Steve’s recent debate on the Piers Morgan show and a revisit to last week’s discussion on th link between energy and productivity, they look at how policy since the 1980s aggressively incentivizes borrowing over saving. Steve argues that the banking sector now functions primarily to inflate asset bubbles—particularly in housing—rather than funding productive industry, effectively conditioning entire generations to rely on debt-fueled asset growth for wealth. By debunking the neoclassical "savings myth," they sho...

In this episode of Debunking Economics, Steve Keen dismantles the mainstream economic obsession with "Total Factor Productivity" (TFP), labeling it a mythical construct that ignores the laws of physics. He argues that economists historically "fudged" data to credit an abstract idea of technology for growth, while in reality, productivity gains are almost entirely a function of increasing the energy throughput of machinery. Keen asserts that "labor without energy is a corpse" and "capital without energy is a sculpture," emphasizing that real output only rises when we design machines capable of converting more energy into useful work. The discussion concludes that...

Phil and Steve analyze the 2026 return of double-digit inflation, characterizing it as a structural cost-push crisis rather than the result of excess consumer demand. Keen argues that with Brent crude hitting $100 a barrel due to the Strait of Hormuz blockade, energy costs have become a fundamental driver of prices that central bank interest rate hikes are fundamentally powerless to resolve. He delivers a scathing critique of current monetary policy, suggesting that raising rates acts as a "debt tax" that exacerbates the real income shock for households while failing to address the underlying energy supply bottlenecks. To truly "beat" this inflation...

In this episode, Phil Dobbie and Steve Keen dissect Bank of England Governor Andrew Bailey’s push for greater central bank independence, a move Bailey claims is necessary to shield price stability from politically motivated meddling. Steve Keen, however, isn't buying the mainstream narrative, arguing that central banks are operating on a "fantasy" model that ignores the actual mechanics of money creation and the volatile role of private debt. The discussion ranges from the "policy ineffectiveness" of interest rate hikes to the historic failures of central banks to act as anything more than a "Greenspan put" for a fragile banking sy...

In this episode of the Debunking Economics podcast, Phil Dobbie and Professor Steve Keen explore the precarious intersection of the ongoing global energy crisis and the massive resource demands of the AI revolution. The conversation traverses a landscape of geopolitical instability—from Iranian influence in the Strait of Hormuz to the vulnerabilities of Western microchip manufacturing—while questioning whether the "AI promise" can survive a world of dwindling energy supplies and extreme inequality. Professor Keen offers a provocative comparison between the disruptive force of political volatility and the impending reality of global warming, arguing that without a fundamental shift toward coll...

Phil and Steve discuss the escalating global energy crisis and Australia’s precarious response. They critique the government’s move to lower fuel prices by cutting excise taxes and GST, arguing that while it offers short-term relief to the working class, it fails to address the critical issue of supply and consumption. The conversation highlights a significant vulnerability: Australia maintains only a 30-day onshore reserve of petroleum, far below the International Energy Association's 90-day requirement. Steve warns that a total depletion of diesel reserves could lead to a domestic famine, as the nation's food distribution rely almost entirely on trucking. To m...

In this episode of the Debunking Economics podcast, Phil Dobbie and Steve Keen explore the core of economic theory: the definition of value. They contrast the classical cost of production theory with the neoclassical focus on subjective utility, arguing that while neoclassical models often fail mathematical rigor, the cost-plus approach reflects how real firms operate. The pair discusses the critical role of innovation and market segmentation, noting that while competition typically forces margins back toward production costs over time, elite brands like Ferrari can maintain high markups by intentionally limiting supply and occupying unique segments where value is tied to...

This week Phil and Steve examine the concept of compound interest and its inextricable link to exponential growth in a world with finite resources. They discuss how interest was historically viewed as a sin—the crime of usury—across major religions until the industrial revolution provided the physical growth and energy consumption necessary to support such financial claims. The duo highlights the systemic risk posed by the expectation of permanent improvement in living standards, noting that while interest rates may not have an inherent limit, the biosphere certainly does.

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Phil points out that the US is likely to spend $1.5 trilion on defense/offense spending this year. Acknowledging that sovereign currencies can essentially create money to fund defense, doesn’t there get a point where too much is just too much? A significant portion of this expenditure flows to major defense contractors like Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman, often resulting in "corporate welfare" where increased military budgets are prioritized over social welfare. Steve says that while money creation is theoretically limitless for the US, the real-world constraint lies in physical production capabilities and the availability of essential materials like rare ea...

This week Phil and Steve dive into the mechanics, ethics, and economic consequences of a Windfall Tax.

The discussion starts with the UK’s energy levy on North Sea oil and gas producers, questioning why these taxes are often temporary "clunky" fixes rather than permanent structural policies. They explore the fundamental disconnect between international corporate profits and the national resources they exploit, comparing the UK's approach to the nationalized success of nations like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Norway.

The conversation expands beyond fossil fuels to ask: Should the same logic apply to the "te...

In this episode of the Debunking Economics podcast, Phil and Steve Keen explore the shifting value of higher education, questioning whether the move toward commercialization and high student debt is fundamentally undermining the learning experience. Steve reflects on the decay of academic standards over the last thirty years, arguing that universities have transformed from centers of scholarship into profit-driven credential mills that prioritize enrollment numbers over depth of thought. They discuss the rising financial burden on graduates—averaging £53,000 in the UK—and compare the declining real-term starting salaries of academics and white-collar professionals with the robust earnings of skilled tradespeople like...

Phil and Steve Keen discuss Steve’s recent experience at the World Forum in Berlin, which he frames as a progressive "antidote" to the World Economic Forum. Their conversation touches on a wide range of global issues, including the conflicted leadership in the Palestinian Authority and Israel, the necessity of a two-state solution in Gaza, and the controversial role of figures like Hillary Clinton and Bob Geldof. A significant portion of the dialogue focuses on Steve’s proposal to expand the legal definition of ecocide to include criminal negligence, arguing that economists and corporations should face personal liability for their role...

This week Phil and Steve dissect Elon Musk’s futuristic vision of a moneyless society driven by AI and ubiquitous robotics. Drawing parallels to Marxist ideals and ancient "slave" societies (reimagined with robots), they explore the logistical impossibilities of such a world—from the staggering mineral requirements for billions of droids to the complex social dynamics of status and resource allocation in the absence of a pricing mechanism. Ultimately, they argue that while our current monetary system is flawed, the move toward a post-scarcity world requires a "better" multi-dimensional currency rather than the complete abolition of money, which serves as a vi...

In this episode we ask whether monetary policy actually works, as the RBA lifts rates to 3.85%—well above other advanced economies—despite inflation being driven by capacity constraints rather than excess demand. We explore why higher rates may worsen the problem by choking investment and productivity, why the quantity‑of‑money story doesn’t hold when spending velocity rises, and how fiscal tools could target inflation far more precisely. Steve argues that Australia’s deeper issue is its housing‑debt machine: high house prices, bank‑driven mortgage lending, and a credit‑fuelled economy that rate hikes can’t fix and may even reinforce.<...

Phil Dobbie talks to Prof Steve Keen about the one modern economy that actually let its banks fail — Iceland — and what the rest of the world should have learned from it. They unpack how a tiny country ended up with banks eleven times the size of its GDP, fuelled by high interest rates, foreign borrowing, and a carry‑trade frenzy that made Iceland look less like a nation and more like a hedge fund with a flag. When the krona collapsed, imports doubled in price, inflation exploded, and the banking system imploded — yet Iceland refused to socialise the losses, letting foreign...

This week Phil and Steve explore who would be hit hardest by a full‑blown US–EU trade war, and how the escalating Greenland dispute exposes Europe’s dependence on American defence and technology. They examine whether Europe could credibly build its own security architecture — from a eurozone‑funded army to a rapidly expanding domestic arms industry — and how tariff retaliation, energy costs, and the dominance of US big tech complicate the picture. With studies suggesting EU exports to the US could halve under 25% tariffs, and with Europe still buying billions in American weaponry each year, the discussion asks whether a strategic...

In this episode of Debunking Economics, Phil Dobbie and Professor Steve Keen dive into the thorny world of “sovereign money” and “100% money” — two reform proposals that aim to radically reshape how modern banking works. Prompted by a listener email, the conversation unpacks why today’s system of bank‑created money, reserves, and government deficits is so convoluted, and whether a simpler, more transparent architecture is even possible. Phil sketches the appeal of a world where everyone holds an account directly at the central bank, bypassing the private banking system for everyday payments, while Steve explores what such a shift would mean for...

In this episode, Phil and Steve take listeners on a guided tour through the mechanics of government bond markets — stripping away the myths, misunderstandings and textbook clichés that usually cloud the topic. Starting from a listener question, they explore why governments issue bonds in the first place, how deficits translate into reserves within the banking system, and why double‑entry bookkeeping is the only reliable way to understand what’s really happening behind the scenes.

Steve explains that when governments spend more than they tax, they create deposits in private bank accounts and matching reserves for the...

In this episode of Debunking Economics, Phil Dobbie and Professor Steve Keen tackle the global obsession with interest rates. From Australia’s Reserve Bank to the UK’s faltering economy, they explore how central banks use rate changes as a blunt tool to manage inflation and growth. Phil highlights the real‑world pressures on households—mortgages, rents, and tax thresholds—while Steve dismantles the neoclassical models that underpin mainstream policy, exposing their unrealistic assumptions about consumption, altruism, and infinite planning horizons.

Together they reveal how rate hikes often enrich bondholders while squeezing ordinary borrowers, skewing income distributi...

In this week’s Debunking Economics podcast, Phil Dobbie and Prof. Steve Keen dive into the global water crisis under the banner “Trouble on the Waterfront.” They explore the paradox of Earth’s abundant water supply versus the tiny fraction that is actually accessible, highlighting UN figures that show billions still lack safe drinking water and sanitation. From the UK’s tight margins between renewable supply and consumption, to Australia’s surplus constrained by geography, and Iran’s alarming shortages that threaten the viability of Tehran itself, the discussion underscores how climate change and poor management amplify the risks. Along the way...

Foreign aid is shrinking fast. The UK has cut its commitment from 0.7% of national income to 0.3%, the US has scrapped USAID and axed 80% of its projects, and overall global aid is down by more than a quarter in just five years. That’s less than 0.2% of the world economy — smaller than Walmart’s turnover — even as the Gates Foundation warns that cuts have already reversed decades of progress in child survival. In 2025 alone, 200,000 extra children under five are expected to die from preventable causes. And in places like Afghanistan, Somalia, and the Central African Republic, one in ten infants won’t ma...

So, what does it mean to be Austrian? And we are not talking about wearing Lederhosen every weekend, going on long hikes through the mountains and eating schnitzel. Instead, the focus in this podcast is on the Austrian school of economics. They are two very different things, The country has moved on, but the theory remains. This week Phil and Steve look at the principles of Austrian economics – what they got right (partially) and what they got wrong. They contrast it with neoclassical economics, exploring the significance of equilibrium and innovation in capitalism. The discussion also touches on the concept of...

The early days of Bitcoin its proponents argued that this could be the global currency to replace fiat money. Governments the world over were issuing too much currency, leading to inflation, whilst imposing arbitrary regulations that would be impossible once authorities lost control of money.

Steve says for that to work Bitcoin would need to be capable of the instantaneous transactions we are used to with the billions of banking transactions that happen every day. What’s more, the limited supply of Bitcoin means increases in productivity are likely to result in deflation p- a bigger en...

How far are we willing to go in accepting the corporate takeover of just about everything. In Britain public utilities were sold off, so companies could profit from selling resources whilst minimising maintenance of facilities. Phil asks the question how Britain’s water infrastructure is in such a state of repair in an industry that makes £13 billion per year. Then there’s the moves to strangle publicly funded media and privatise the funding of health. But it gets worse. Britain’s freeports are local areas run jointly by local authorities of local business. Democracy has become just another seat at the tab...

Several listeners have written in to get Steve’s views on the path being taken by Mark Carney to rescue the Canadian economy. Initially it looked like the country was rebounding strongly from the pandemic, but in the last couple of years the growth has slowed and then declined. That was before President Trump hit them hard with tariffs and then said he’d like them to become part of the US. 

In some ways he is trying the same approach as the UK – to balance the operational side of government spending but inventing in infrastructure beyond...

This week Phil and Steve look at cost-plus inflation, driven by rising wages. Right now its being given as the reason that services inflation is remaining sticky and that’s why many central banks are reluctant to reduce interest rates. Steve says it’s a far more sensible assumption than the neoclassical belief, promulgated by Milton Friedman, that inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon.

It's not just workers who can put prices up, of course. Companies can increase their margins, and we saw a fair bit of that post-COVID. Burt what of the tech-driven futu...

Is it fair enough to totally write off Ricardo’s theory of competitive advantage? Certainly, President Trump isn’t an advocate, using tariffs to protect America’s domestic industries from those countries that produce stuff cheaper. A broad economy, producing a range of products and services, is preferably to a narrow one, reliant on one or two key exports, which is what Ricardo advocated. But in support of Ricardo, some of the narrowest economies, like Australia, have some of the highest levels of GDP per capita. It seems to work for resource-based economies, so far. But could they be even richer...

The UK Labour party has struggled to forge a recovery for the beleaguered economy. Rachel Reeves is intent on reducing the government deficit. Her first attempt involved increasing the National Insurance contributions made by businesses – in effect, raising a payrolls tax. In short, a reason for companies unsure about recruiting in a slow growth economy to err on the side of caution. Now, there’s talk of tax rises. Steve and phil talk about the impact on growth of added more to the consumer’s tax burden, and the impact it’ll have on money in circulation. Then there’s the confusi...

Before he was the UK Prime Minister at war with the Nazis, Winston Churchill ws the UK’s Chancellor. He played it very straight, with a preoccupation with balancing the budget. He also took the Uk back onto the Gold Exchange, despite warnings from Keynes that the move would be deflationary.

In 1928 he reinforced his neoclassical credentials, saying very little additional employment and no permanent employment can be created by state borrowing and state expenditure. That is, of course, the exact opposite of the idea of a job guarantee, but is Churchill partially right? Can a jo...

In UK politicians of all persuasions agree that foreign investment I s important to add to the growth of the UK economy. Steve says you have to have foreigners buying into the UK to counter the currency losses from a sizeable balance of trade deficit. But a lot of that investment will see profits being repatriated back overseas. And then there’d the overseas investment in UK bonds and shares. Andy Burnham, the Manchester Mayor who seems to be positioning himself to replace Keir Starmer, has said we need to limit the ownership of UK nbonds to foreign investors, and no...