Precision Animal Training

Kirsten has a way of describing how modern dog training grew up, and it comes in three phases. First the scientific one, when the Brelands' and Baileys' work came through the chicken workshops and the field found out there was a science underneath it. Then the professional one, when it turned out that loving animals is not a business plan. And now the ethical one. Don Hanson has lived all three of them, and because he is a prolific writer, he wrote them down while they were happening. Thirty years of this field's history exists in his archive whether...

Mike Wood interviewed Shelley for a job in the Florida Keys on a glass bottom boat. They were both married to other people. Years later, both divorced, he hired her again to come to Mexico, and that is where it turned into a marriage. It is also where two trainers with one dolphin enclosure turned into close to thirty facilities in nine countries with more than two thousand employees.

Shelley and Mike join Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey for a conversation that runs from an old Florida mom-and-pop attraction to a backyard beehive...

Bob Bailey has been watching this field for sixty or seventy years, and I have been watching it with him, and his verdict is blunt. More dog businesses have failed on the business end than on the dog training end. Veronica Boutelle watched the same thing happen from the other side. She was Director of Behavior and Training at the San Francisco SPCA, where Jean Donaldson's Academy for Dog Trainers ran out of her department, and she would check in with graduates a year later and find them back in the careers they had tried to escape, or picking...

After Marian Bailey died, Dr. Bob Bailey was ready to be done. He had promised her on her deathbed that he would keep teaching, and then he got discouraged enough to start looking at other things he could do with his time. Two women talked him out of it. Cheryl Trotter drove up from Houston and Carolyn Clark came down from Canada, and between them they told him they would help and they would not let him quit. Everything that came after, Sweden, Japan, China, and the workshops that built a generation of trainers, happened because those two would...

Vicky Darnell did not want the puppy. The plan was to get herself trained up first and then bring another dog into the house, and that is not how it worked out. Tiz came home early. Three weeks later Vicky was sitting in her first Chicken Workshop. What she carried back to Chicagoland was not a chicken trick. It was timing, criteria, rate of reinforcement, and the nerve to stop a session that is going sideways instead of hoping it comes around. Tiz started trialing shortly after she turned six months old, the youngest age a dog can compete...

On this episode of Precision Animal Training, hosts Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey sit down with renowned Veterinary Behaviorist Dr. Ian Dunbar for a wide-ranging conversation on how animal training has evolved. Dr. Dunbar traces his path from watching animals as a child to pioneering puppy classes and putting early socialization at the center of good training. The discussion returns again and again to positive reinforcement, the power of shaping small improvements, and the need for trainers to observe real behavior and use simple, measurable data. Dr. Bailey and Dr. Dunbar talk about the Brelands’ work with chickens as...

In this episode of the Precision Animal Training Podcast, host Kirsten Kraljevic sits down with Dr. Viviane Thebe from Germany, a trainer known for pioneering work with both chickens and dogs. The conversation follows her path from veterinary medicine into animal behavior, the workshops in Sweden that changed how she saw training, and the practical reality of teaching while caring for her young son. Listeners hear how those early chicken workshops grew in Germany and why she has stayed focused on rapid, precise training. Dr. Thebe also talks about founding a “top trainers” organization that uses friendly competition to push...

In this episode of Precision Animal Training, host Kirsten Kraljevic welcomes Jean Donaldson and Dr. Bob Bailey to explore the evolution of animal training education. The conversation highlights Jean Donaldson’s groundbreaking work founding the Academy for Dog Trainers and the impact of introducing rigorous training plans and standardized curricula. The discussion moves through the transition from traditional, aversive-based dog training to science-based methods, emphasizing the importance of technical skill and well-vetted plans. The guests reflect on how critical fundamentals, repetition, and objective measurement are for developing competent trainers and helping pet owners succeed. They also address challenges in mo...

In this episode of Precision Animal Training, hosts Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey welcome renowned trainer Susan Garrett. The conversation explores Susan’s transformative journey from traditional dog training to evidence-based practices inspired by Dr. Bob Bailey and Marian Bailey. Together they reflect on the importance of embracing science, efficient training methods, and the powerful impact of community. Listeners hear insightful anecdotes about the famous chicken camps, practical applications of operant conditioning across species, and the critical role of humility and curiosity in continued learning. Susan also discusses her online education efforts, emphasizing accessible, science-based training for all do...

In this episode of Precision Animal Training, Kirsten Kraljevic hosts industry legends Dr. Bob Bailey and Ken Ramirez for an insightful discussion on the evolution of animal training, the importance of mechanical skills, and lifelong learning. Ken Ramirez reflects on his diverse career and emphasizes the value of seeking out foundational literature and learning from mentors. The conversation delves into the necessity for trainers to both invest in their own skills and seek critical feedback, highlighting how true mastery requires constant practice and humility. Dr. Bob Bailey recounts the origins of the technology-based approach to training, stressing precise reinforcement...

In this episode of Precision Animal Training, host Kirsten Kraljevic welcomes acclaimed trainers Bob Bailey and Phung Luu to explore how merging instinctual and systematic approaches leads to transformative animal training. Phung shares his inspiring journey from rural Vietnam to leading bird shows and consulting for top zoos. He highlights his pivotal shift from intuitive, shooting from the hip methods to science-based systems after attending Bob Bailey’s renowned chicken workshops. The conversation emphasizes the art of observation, the value of empowering both animals and people, and the evolution of animal care philosophies in modern zoos. Phung also offers pr...

Show Notes

On this episode, Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey sit down with longtime student and class assistant Mimmi Pacerek to explore the unique and transformative experience of participating in chicken training workshops. They highlight why these programs deliver such powerful value for animal trainers at every level. At their core, the workshops are designed to train people, not just animals, by placing participants in situations that demand quick, effective decisions under pressure. A central theme is the importance of adapting teaching methods to suit diverse groups and individual learners, using stress thoughtfully...

In this episode, Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey sit down with Simon Prins, a pioneering animal trainer from the Netherlands. Simon shares his remarkable journey, from his first encounters with Bob Bailey to the challenges of introducing science-based training methods in Europe. He explains the shift from traditional approaches to more efficient, data-driven techniques that are transforming the field.

Key topics include the importance of terminal maneuvers, the innovative use of laser guidance in training, and the value of sharing best practices across organizations. Simon highlights persistence, belief, and continuous learning as he reflects on the...

In this episode of Precision Animal Training, Kirsten and Dr. Bob Bailey reflect on their recent workshops with trainers from around the world. They highlight the importance of challenge and rigor in quality animal training education. The discussion explores the pitfalls of oversimplification, the rise of “knockoff” workshops, and why effective programs must push participants to build genuine mechanical and observational skills. Drawing from decades of teaching experience, Dr. Bailey shares memorable stories, including missteps and humorous moments, while stressing that training principles should be kept simple but never easy. He cautions against unnecessary complexity and emphasizes the need for...

In this episode of Precision Animal Training, Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey explore the evolution and global impact of modern animal training. They discuss the Baileys’ and Brelands’ pioneering workshops, the challenges of traveling with chickens, and Marian’s health struggles, which eventually led to Dr. Bob Bailey taking the lead at Animal Behavior Enterprises. 

The legacy of their methods spread worldwide as students brought the knowledge back to their home countries. After Marian’s passing, invitations for Dr. Bob to teach internationally grew, expanding the reach of their work even further.

In this episode of Precision Animal Training, Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey dive into the wild logistics and rich history behind taking chicken training workshops on the road across North America. Dr. Bob Bailey shares stories of hauling 42 chickens, tons of feed, and custom-built equipment from coast to coast. He navigated complex state and international animal inspection rules while keeping high welfare standards for the birds, often going well beyond what the industry required. The episode is packed with inventive solutions for life on the road, like building odor filters for hotel stays and shoveling 200 pounds of ice...

In this episode, Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey dive into the origins and evolution of their renowned chicken training workshops. Kirsten highlights the foundational role of observation and behavioral change in animal training, and she explains the workshops’ lasting impact on trainers across the industry. Dr. Bob Bailey shares how he and Marian developed these workshops, how they selected dedicated students, and how they refined their methods over time. He mentions influential trainers who attended, talks about the balance between real skill-building and industry hype, and recalls Marian’s incredible memory and drive. The episode shows the challenge of s...

In this episode of Precision Animal Training, Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey take a deep dive into the groundbreaking days of Animal Behavior Enterprises in the 1970s. They explore the innovative systems first developed by Keller Breland and later refined by Dr. Bob Bailey himself. The conversation highlights some truly remarkable training feats - ravens that carried loads, vultures in live performances, and even the conditioning of cockroaches and spiders. On the personal side, Bailey shares stories about raising and training exotic animals alongside his wife Marian and their six kids (three sets of twins), turning the whole...

In this episode of Precision Animal Training, Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey delve into the evolution of modern animal training, tracing its roots from the Brelands’ pioneering work to its influence on institutions like SeaWorld and military projects. Dr. Bob Bailey shares insights on systematized animal care, the importance of observational skills, and the unique role of chickens in foundational training. The discussion covers innovative training for unpredictable TV commercials and military applications, including clandestine operations with ravens and specialized work with scout and mine-detecting dogs. Both speakers highlight the shift away from harsh punishment towards reinforcement-based methods, th...

In this episode of Precision Animal Training, Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey explore the innovative scaling and automation that defined Animal Behavior Enterprises (ABE), founded by Marian and Keller Breland. They discuss how the Brelands revolutionized animal training in the 1940s and 1950s by integrating automated reinforcement equipment, developing standardized training manuals, and creating a systematic approach to trainer education that delivered remarkable efficiency and consistency. 

Dr. Bob Bailey details the rigorous record-keeping and incentive systems that built a strong culture of continuous improvement and profitability. Despite ABE’s commercial success and technical breakthroughs, their efforts to...

In this episode of Precision Animal Training, host Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey explore more of the life and journey of Marian and Keller Breland, pioneers in animal behavior and training. The episode details Marian’s rise from poverty to a scholarship at the University of Minnesota, her accidental introduction to Keller and the pivotal meeting with B.F. Skinner. Listeners learn about their involvement in the top-secret WWII “Project Orcon,” where pigeons were trained to guide bombs with surprising precision. After the war, the Brelands transitioned from academia to industry, developing scalable methods for training feed salespeople to use...

In this solo episode of SeongLife, Christina Song opens up about her experiences growing up as a pastor's kid in a Korean-American family. She shares honest stories about her rebellious teenage years, including running away from home for 2 weeks and struggling with the pressure to be perfect. Christina reflects on her father’s strictness and anger, explaining how his difficult childhood shaped him. She discusses how these challenges influenced her values around family, honesty, and how she raised her children differently.

Christina also talks about her close relationship with her mom and the effects of family issues li...

In this episode, Kirsten and Dr. Bob Bailey explore the origins and impact of the "Skinner box" and the pivotal contributions of Keller and Marian Breland to animal training. They discuss how the Brelands, inspired by their work with B.F. Skinner, moved beyond the rigid confines of academia, experimenting with operant conditioning and the introduction of the bridging stimulus, today's clicker or marker. Their innovative approach transformed reinforcement timing, enabling training in open environments and across various animal species. The episode highlights the Brelands’ field trials with dogs, their early use of positive reinforcement in the 1940s, and th...

In this inspiring episode of Chicken Workshop, host Kirsten Kraljevic sits down with her mentor, Dr. Bob Bailey, to reveal the untold history behind animal training’s evolution, especially the foundational Chicken Workshops. Dr. Bob Bailey shares fascinating anecdotes tracing the workshops’ roots to the 1940s and the Brelands’ pioneering work systematizing operant conditioning with chickens. Kirsten Kraljevic reflects on her personal journey, describing the empowering shift from compulsion-based methods to reinforcement-based training under Dr. Bob Bailey’s guidance. The episode highlights the workshops’ impact on developing world-class mechanical and observational skills for all trainers and emphasizes the importance of passing...

In this episode of Precision Animal Training, Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey explore the rich history of animal training through the legacy of Keller and Marian Breland, two pioneering psychologists who worked alongside B.F. Skinner. Dr. Bob Bailey shares how the Brelands influenced his career, their revolutionary use of operant conditioning, and their role in training pigeons to guide bombs during WWII. The conversation highlights the Brelands' founding of Animal Behavior Enterprises, their pioneering animal shows, data-driven training methods, and the lasting impact of Skinner’s focus on observable, measurable behavior. Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey em...

In this pilot episode of Precision Animal Training, Kirsten Kraljevic introduces animal training legend Dr. Bob Bailey, sharing stories from his childhood curiosity with ants to pioneering dolphin training for the U.S. Navy. The conversation dives deep into the science of behavior change, the value of precise observation, and the origins of the famous Chicken Workshops. Dr. Bob Bailey reflects on his unconventional journey, influential mentors, and the importance of trainers focusing on their own behavior to inspire animal learning. Listeners will discover why data, curiosity, and adaptability are key to both animal and human achievement. This episode...