Church Staff Book Club
A podcast for church leaders who want to grow but don’t have time to read every book. Join authors Jonathan Malm and Jason Young as they break down leadership books chapter by chapter, sharing practical insights and real-life ministry applications along the way. Whether you’re reading along or just listening in, this is your go-to resource for becoming a better leader... One conversation at a time.
The Most Annoying Person on Your Church Staff Might Be Your Best Teacher
The person on your church staff who drives you crazy might be the one you have the most to learn from. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 2 of How to Work with Complicated People by Ryan Leak, and why it's worth doing the hard work of understanding difficult coworkers instead of writing them off.
Jonathan opens with a confession. When he was younger, he learned from everyone because he assumed every adult had it figured out. Now he sees dysfunction faster, dismisses people quicker, and learns...
The 4 Ways to Handle Difficult People at Church (Only One Works)
There are four ways to handle a difficult person at church: avoid them, change them, cancel them, or understand them. Three of those feel easier. Only one actually works. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young kick off a new book, How to Work with Complicated People by Ryan Leak, and dig into Chapter 1.
Everyone has someone in mind when they hear that title. A volunteer who never shows up on time. A pastor who doesn't respect your ideas. A coworker whose voice alone sets you off. But the first...
The 6-Month Rule for Surviving Any Church Staff Transition
Getting promoted over your friends is one of the hardest transitions on church staff. On Friday they were your peers. On Monday they report to you. In the final episode of our Likable Leader series, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young talk through Chapter 11, Forged in the Fire, and what happens to your leadership when things get hard: conflict, disappointment, transitions, and chaos.
Anyone can be likable when the church is healthy and everyone agrees with you. The real test comes when a friend doesn't get the promotion you got, when a volunteer talks trash behind your back...
Is Fun Killing Your Team's Productivity? (No, and Here's the Proof)
Is having fun at work killing your church's productivity? Short answer: no. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young walk through Chapter 10 of their book Likable Leader and take apart the idea that fun and productivity are enemies. If your church staff culture feels tense, quiet, or overly serious, it's probably not because your team lacks personality. Something is blocking the fun, and there's a good chance it's coming from leadership.
People naturally have fun together. Put strangers in a park and eventually someone pulls out a frisbee. So when...
The Real Reason Church Staff Quit (It's Not the Pay)
Why do good church staff quit? It's usually not the paycheck. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young unpack Chapter 9 of their book Likable Leader and get honest about the real reason church employees walk away: leaders who take from their team instead of investing in them.
If you lead church staff or volunteers, you've probably felt the fear. You encourage someone, they realize how talented they are, and they leave. So you hold back. But holding back is exactly what pushes people out the door. Jonathan shares the story...
Facts Tell People What Matters. Stories Make them Feel It.
You can have the best content in the room and still lose the room. But the right story, even a short one, can turn a hostile audience into a leaned-in one before you've said anything else of substance.
In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 8 of Likable Leader, making the case that storytelling isn't just a communication skill; it's one of the most powerful trust-building tools a leader has. From why Jason opens every emotional intelligence workshop by admitting he was once told he had none, to why announcements at church consistently fail...
Humility Is Making Room for Everyone Else
Arrogance makes leadership about the leader. Humility makes leadership big enough for other people. And the difference between the two might be the thing your team is waiting for you to figure out.
In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 7 of Likable Leader, reframing what humility actually means for leaders and why it has nothing to do with downplaying yourself or deflecting every compliment. From false humility that argues with people trying to encourage you, to ego quietly becoming part of your organization's operating system, this conversation goes places most leadership books won't.<...
Clarity is the New Kindness
You don't have to have all the answers. You just have to know the next step and have the courage to say it out loud.
In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 6 of Likable Leader, making the case that clarity isn't just a communication skill; it's one of the most profound acts of care a leader can offer their team. Because ambiguity doesn't just slow people down. It exhausts them, puts them in survival mode, and quietly chips away at everything you've built together.
In this episode, you'll learn:
Why...Do You Show Up to Monitor or to Support?
In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 5 of Likable Leader, unpacking what it actually means to support and invest in the people you lead. Jason shares the story of implementing a scheduling change that caused 210 volunteers to quit overnight and what his pastoral team said to him in that moment that changed everything. Jonathan reflects on the difference between leaders who show up to inspect and leaders who show up to encourage, and why your team can feel the difference immediately.
In this episode, you'll learn:
Why the most overlooked form of...Your Team Can't Hit a Target They Can't See
Every church says they have a vision. Very few have one their team can actually act on. And when vision is vague, people don't just drift... they fill in the gaps with their own.
In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 4 of Likable Leader, unpacking what makes a vision compelling enough that people actually want to give their lives to it, not just show up and do their jobs. From ego-driven vision that quietly uses people to build a platform, to fake work that simulates progress without actually moving anything forward, this episode...
It's Not a People Problem, but a Communications One
Most leaders think they're good listeners. Most of them are wrong. And the gap between what you intend to communicate and what your team actually hears might be quietly costing you more followership than you realize.
In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 3 of Likable Leader, unpacking why the most likable leaders aren't necessarily the best speakers... they're the best listeners. From the airport PA system trick to the noise that's already drowning out your message, this one gets refreshingly practical about what great communication actually looks like in a church context.
<...Consistency is More Powerful than Charisma
Your team isn't afraid of your feedback. They're afraid of not knowing which version of you is going to show up today.
In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 2 of Likable Leader and reframe what integrity actually means for leaders. Forget the moral definition for a moment. The kind of integrity that builds followership is about consistency. Predictability. Being the same person on a hard Tuesday as you are on a great Sunday. And it turns out, that kind of integrity might be the greatest gift you can give your team.
...
Kindness Isn't Soft... It's the Most Important Part of Our Leadership
Nobody wants to admit they want to be liked. But what if likability isn't about feeding your ego... What if it's about whether people actually want to follow you?
Welcome to Season 4 of the Church Staff Book Club. Jonathan Malm and Jason Young are diving into their own book, Likable Leader, and right out of the gate they're wrestling with the title itself. Because "likable" sounds like something a people-pleaser cares about, not a serious leader. Except the research says otherwise. And so does every volunteer who ever quietly stopped showing up.
In this episode...
Your Team Doesn't Fear Failure, They Fear Your Response
After seven chapters on personal failure, John Maxwell finally turns the lens outward, and the implications for church leaders are significant. Because here's the thing: your team members probably aren't afraid of failing. They're afraid of you when they do.
In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 8 of How to Get a Return on Failure, exploring what it actually looks like to lead a team through failure, not just survive it yourself. Jonathan opens up about teaching his five-year-old to lose at chess, a team member who nervously brought him honest feedback, and...
How to Know If Your Failure Was Worth It
Not all failures are created equal. The question isn't just did it fail, it's whether it was a good miss or a bad miss. And knowing the difference might be the most important leadership skill you're not practicing.
In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 7 of How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell, unpacking how to evaluate whether a failure was worth attempting in the first place and what to do about it either way. From Saturday night services that never quite took off, to putting the wrong people in...
Failure isn't the Problem. Skipping the Evaluation Is.
In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young unpack Chapter 6 of How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell, walking through Maxwell's practical "cycle of improvement" and making the case that it's not failure itself that makes you better, it's what you do with it. Jonathan opens up about his current season of experimenting with AI coding (including building a video game with Claude Code and a live display system for his coworking space). Jason gets honest about the temptation to make too many improvements all at once and why small, compounding tweaks almost always beat sweeping...
Nobody Signs Up for Difficult, but It's What You Need
In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 5 of How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell and get surprisingly personal doing it. Jason opens up about navigating a genuinely heavy season in real time. Jonathan reflects on what getting fired, building a business, and supporting his wife through her darkest season all happening simultaneously actually produced in him. And both of them wrestle with the question every church leader eventually has to answer: are you running from God, or running to Him?
In this episode, you'll learn:
Why your brain...Building Resilience Through Failure Makes You Irreplaceable
Every leader fails. The question isn't whether it'll happen. It's what you do in the moments after. Do you get bitter, or do you get better?
In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 4 of How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell, unpacking how failure can become one of the most powerful tools in your leadership development... if you know how to use it. Jason gets refreshingly honest about a leadership experience that went sideways just days before recording, and Jonathan reflects on why the pressure to perform actually grows the...
Stop Fearing Rejection... Become Unstoppable
Failure is hard enough on its own. But when ego gets involved, it can take a setback and turn it into a full identity crisis. This chapter is about getting out of your own way.
In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 3 of How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell: "Get Over Failure by Getting Over Yourself." Because sometimes the hardest thing to recover from isn't the failure itself. It's the story you tell yourself about it.
🎧 What We Cov...
Success Can Actually Hurt Your Future
We talk a lot about learning from failure. But what about success? It might be quietly doing more damage than you think.
In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 2 of How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell. The big idea: success and failure don't belong in isolation, and when we treat them that way, both become dangerous.
🎧 What We Cover in This Episode:
Why success can deceive you just as much as failure can discourage youThe danger of "I am...Are You Planning to Fail?
Every leader fails. The question isn't whether it'll happen... it's what you do with it when it does.
In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young kick off their third book: How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell. Chapter 1 reframes the way leaders think about failure. From something to avoid at all costs to something that, when handled well, actually pays you back.
🎧 What We Cover in This Episode:
Why most people treat failure as final and why that's costing themThe difference between you...Embrace Endings
Most ministry leaders are great at launching new things. But what about ending them? That's where things get messy — and where so much unnecessary pain in churches actually comes from.
In this season finale of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young wrap up The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero with Chapter 9: "Endings and Beginnings." If you're holding onto something that needs to die — a program, a role, a relationship, a season — this conversation is for you.
What We Cover in This Episode:
Why leaders are wired...We Don't Like to Admit We Have Power
Nobody in ministry wants to talk about power. We talk about humility instead. But ignoring your power doesn't make it go away. It just makes it dangerous.
In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 8 of The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero: "Acknowledging Power and Boundaries." Jonathan calls it his favorite chapter in the book and possibly the one that explains more of what goes wrong in churches than any other.
🎧 What We Cover in This Episode:
Why "unexamined power bec...Why Your Church Culture Is Your Fault
The culture your team lives in isn't something that just happens... It's something you create. And if it's unhealthy, the first place to look is in the mirror.
In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 7 of The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero: "How to Build an Emotionally Healthy Team." This is the chapter where everything gets practical, not just for you as a leader, but for the people you lead every single day.
🎧 What We Cover in This Episode:
Why...Speed Might Be Your Enemy
Most ministry leaders make decisions the same way they do everything else: fast. But speed might be costing you more than you think.
In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 6 of The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero: "Planning and Decision Making." This is where all that inner work finally meets real life... how you actually lead, plan, and make calls that shape your church and your team.
🎧 What We Cover in This Episode:
Why fast decisions often bypass the dee...Sabbath Isn't Just a Day Off
There's a big difference between a day off and a Sabbath, and most church leaders are only getting one of them.
In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 5 of The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero: "Practice Sabbath Delight." If you've ever felt guilty for resting, struggled to stop working, or wondered why rest never actually restores you... this conversation is for you.
🎧 What We Cover in This Episode:
Why Sabbath is more than a day off and what actually res...Wanna Be Healthy? Be With God.
Most church leaders are quick to focus on growth metrics but neglect the vital, secret ingredient: cultivating loving union with God. What if the key to sustained, healthy leadership isn’t just doing more for God but actually being with Him in deeper intimacy? Jason Young and Jonathan Malm unravel the vital mistakes pastors often make—speed, busyness, and a focus on performance—that drown out the whisper of God’s presence and lead to burnout and moral failure. In this episode, discover why the most driven leaders are often the most spiritually disconnected. We break down how speed and ambi...
Are You Leading *Through* Your Marriage or Singleness?
Explore the intersection of leadership, singleness, and marriage in this insightful episode of our podcast, as we dive into chapter three of The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero. Discover how personal relationships can enhance ministry impact and why integrating them is crucial for authentic leadership.
Key Topics:Leadership formation through marriage and singlenessIntegrating personal relationships with ministryThe role of relational intimacy in leadershipHistorical perspectives on single leaders in church historyPractical tips for nurturing meaningful relationships in ministryTimestamps:00:00 Introduction00:28 Purpose of the podcast1:07 Leadership development through marriage and singleness4:24 Navigating traditional views of...Get Healthy by Facing Your Shadow
Every leader has a shadow — the hidden wounds, unconscious patterns, and untamed emotions formed long before you ever stepped into a leadership role. The question isn't whether your shadow exists. It's whether you'll face it before it starts leading for you.
In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 2 of The Emotionally Healthy Leader, unpacking one of the most uncomfortable (and most necessary) conversations in church leadership: the parts of yourself you'd rather not look at — and why those are exactly the parts that matter most.
In this episode, you'll learn:
What...The Things that Destroy Your Emotional Health as a Leader
Season 2 is here — and we're diving into one of the most important (and most overlooked) conversations in church ministry: your emotional health as a leader.
Jonathan Malm and Jason Young kick off their discussion of Peter Scazzero's The Emotionally Healthy Leader by unpacking the four telltale signs that a church leader is running on empty — and why most of us don't even realize it's happening.
In this episode, you'll learn:
Why 95% of leaders think they're self-aware — but only 10–15% actually areThe difference between holding binoculars and holding a mirror — and why it changes everything about how you le...Your Volunteers Need More... They Need Significance
What if the secret to an unforgettable guest experience started before anyone walks through the door and had everything to do with how your volunteers feel about themselves?
In this final episode of Season 1, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young wrap up The Come Back Effect by diving into one of the most overlooked principles in church hospitality: volunteer significance. It's not enough to build smooth systems and polished experiences. If the people delivering that experience don't feel meaningful in what they're doing, guests will feel it too.
In this episode, you'll...
Policies Create Machines, Values Create Empowered Teams
What matters more in your church: policies or values?
In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club Podcast, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young unpack Chapter 9 of The Come Back Effect and explore a crucial leadership question:
👉 Are you leading your church with policies that control… or values that create trust?
While policies protect systems, values protect people. And when it comes to church hospitality, volunteer culture, and guest experience, that difference changes everything.
In This Episode, We Discu...
If You're Going to Do it, Make it Excellent
Welcome back to Church Staff Book Club with Jonathan Malm and Jason Young! In Episode 8, we’re walking through Chapter 8 of The Come Back Effect – our book on church hospitality and guest experience – where we challenge a mindset that quietly keeps people from returning:
“Just okay” hospitality.
Most churches don’t have bad hospitality… they have forgettable hospitality. And “good enough” doesn’t usually offend anyone—
it just silently convinces guests not to come back.
In this episode...
Details Communicate More than Your Words Do
👉 What do your church’s small details communicate to first-time guests?
In this episode of Church Staff Book Club, we unpack Chapter 7 of The Come Back Effect and explore why everything communicates, from signage and cleanliness to sound levels, scent, and even the paper towels in the bathroom. Guests notice details that insiders overlook, and those details shape whether people feel welcome, safe, and like they belong.
🎯 In this episode, you’ll discover:
Why guests interpret details differently than regular attendersH...Mistakes are Your Best Chance for Wow
🎯 Mistakes will happen. What matters is how your church recovers.
In this episode of Church Staff Book Club, we explore Chapter 6 of The Come Back Effect and talk about one of the most overlooked aspects of hospitality: how you respond when something goes wrong. From check-in meltdowns to crying babies in service, coffee spills, seating issues, and missed expectations, the question isn’t if mistakes will happen, it’s how prepared your team is to respond with empathy and warmth.
🎙️ You’ll learn:
Why r...Are You the Helper or the Antagonist?
In this episode of Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dive into Chapter 5 of The Come Back Effect: “Think Scene by Scene.” You’ll learn why it’s not just about the stage or sermon, but every transition point guests experience at your church: parking, check-in, kids drop-off, seating, and even how they exit. These in-between moments are often where people feel the most confusion and where churches lose trust without realizing it.
Whether you’re a church staff member, guest services leader, or volunteer, this conversation will help you:<...
Distracted Teams Destroy Hospitality
The guest doesn’t need you to be perfect. They need you to be present.
In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, we break down Chapter 4 of The Come Back Effect and explore why presence beats performance in church hospitality. From the parking lot to the pulpit, your guests can tell when you’re distracted, rushed, or multitasking... and it matters. Whether you’re a pastor, volunteer leader, or on the greeting team, this conversation will help you lead with empathy, margin, and emotional awareness.
🎙...
Known Guests are Welcomed Guests
How well do you really know the people showing up at your church?
In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, we unpack Chapter 3 of The Come Back Effect and dive into the challenge of creating welcoming church experiences. Not just for the crowd you already have, but for the guests God is sending your way.
🎯 Whether you’re a guest services leader, pastor, or volunteer, this episode will challenge how you think about hospitality, spiritual assumptions, church culture, and guest comfort.
🎙️ We discu...
"Welcome" Can't Just Be a Team
What makes a guest feel welcome at church? Is hospitality a job description or a culture everyone shares?
In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, we dive into Chapter 2 of The Come Back Effect to unpack why church culture isn’t built by greeters... it’s built by everyone. From volunteers and tech teams to senior pastors and worship leaders, your guest experience reflects what people feel before they hear the sermon.
🎙️ In this episode, we cover:
Why “culture is...How You Make People Feel Matters
In this first episode, we dive into our own book The Come Back Effect and explore why how people feel at church is just as important as what gets done. From parking lots to greeters to follow-up teams, we discuss how emotional intelligence, hospitality, and intentional leadership create environments where guests feel seen, valued, and want to return.
You’ll hear:
Why great systems alone don’t create great experiencesHow to help volunteers lead with empathy, not just efficiencyWhy church leaders sometimes feel like cogs and how to fix thatWhat it means to b...