Below the Surface

Who keeps environmental professionals honest, and what happens when they get it wrong?

Gunnar and James open with a deceptively simple question: would you take a guaranteed $50,000 or risk it on a coin toss for $1 million? Their answers lead to a revealing conversation about risk, certainty, running a business and how personal circumstances shape financial decisions.

Then the episode switches to newly appointed EIANZ President Fiona Gainsford about the growing influence of professional certification in the environmental industry. A frank discussion about professionalism, accountability and who sets the standards for the environmental industry.<...

What does a career in the environmental industry actually look like, and how do you know when it is time for a change? That change can range from minor adjustment in your life and your expectations and goals to a big one like changing jobs or even careers altogether.

Gunnar and Hammond are joined by career coach Kellie Guenther to discuss career pathways, professional development, leadership, mentoring and workplace culture. 

They also explore the pressures facing young professionals, why the first job can shape an entire career, and why working in the environmental industry may i...

Disclaimers in our reports. Useless fluff or necessary ass covering? 

Who better to discuss this than Sarah Mansfield (LinkedIn) who is returning to Below the Surface and almost immediately raises the bar for all future lawyer and engineer jokes. Sarah, Gunnar and Hammond tackle P&O cruise insults, ALGA glory, puppies, and why a useful “How to Read This Report” section may be better than hiding AI created legal fog at the back.

Other subjects: Report reliance, executive summaries, confused clients, angry clients, and why “nobody other than the Client can rely on this report” is not qu...

In Episode #30 The Duplicate, Gunnar famously declared that duplicate soil samples in heterogeneous fill are useless. Risk assessor Belle Casement of Terravale Consulting heard the episode… and decided Gunnar needed correcting. 😲

In this nerd-out episode, they discuss QA/QC, dodgy duplicates, lab uncertainty, conservative risk assessments, and whether the typical QC sections in contaminated land reports are actually science or just expensive pseudo scientific fluff we do to please regulators. 

Gunnar briefly ponders writing his own version of the ASC NEPM and re-introduces the term Quality Theatre in hope of getting it officially introduced into the Mi...

Hammond relives his time as a representative for Australia in international biodiversity negotiations at COP13 of the Convention on Biological Diversity. But before that a few updates, a hint for auditors and Gunnar almost completely loses it while talking about one of the latest EPA announcements leading to a most epic Gu-rant.

Links:

Clarence Coal mine penalty

Constitutional heads of power.

'Getting to Yes'.

Never Split the Difference.

Rapport - The Four Ways to Read People.

Sam Harris | #132 - Freeing the Hostages with Chris Voss<...

Microplastics: The Invisible Problem (or is it?)

Brooke Kelly from Reditus joins Gunnar and James to unpack microplastics. From penguin carcasses and seal scat (that's science code for poo) to human exposure, they explore where microplastics come from, how they are measured, and why they are everywhere. There is a lot of hype surrounding microplastics and some evidence of ecological harm exists, but human health impacts remain largely observational. They tackle analytical limitations, media-driven panic versus scientific uncertainty, and the parallels with PFAS. 

The episode lands on a pragmatic note: while the science e...

Artificial intelligence has gone from curiosity to daily tool almost overnight. 

In this episode, Gunnar and James sit down with AI consultant Alex Rankin who spent over 25 years in senior roles across the Australian Public Service before turning her focus to helping environmental consultancies figure out where AI actually fits into their workflows. Together they cut through the hype and talk about what AI can actually do for environmental professionals right now.

In this episode:

If you've ever stared at a lab result that exceeds your NEPM HIL and wondered "okay, but what does this actually mean?". This one's for you.

Gunnar and James sit down with Dr Kylie Dodd, environmental toxicologist and risk assessor at GHD, to get into the science behind the numbers that so many of us lean on without fully understanding where they come from. Kylie has a great way of making this stuff click, and the conversation goes places that are genuinely useful for day-to-day practice.

They get into why Tier 1 screening levels are built...

A deeper dive into Acid Sulfate Soils. In a slightly QLD centric episode, Gunnar and James are joined by all three main authors of the QLD ASS Management Guidelines, widely regarded as the best ASS guidelines in the world. 

Sue-Ellen Dear is a Senior Land Resource Officer with the QLD Department of Natural Resources and Mines and has contributed to acid sulfate soil policy and guidance since 1996. She is lead author of the QLD ASS Management Guidelines.

Kristie Williams has spent nearly 25 years in the QLD government soils team, working across A...

How much of any given contaminant is actually taken up into human bodies?

If we think about it, that is one of the single most important things to consider as an environmental consultant when reporting on a site's contamination status, yet it is not something that is very often done. Gunnar and James are yet again soaring with an industry eagle as they set out to get better at that very aspect of consulting.

They chat with Dr Albert Juhasz, a Research Professor at the Future Industries Institute, internationally recognised for cross-disciplinary research on contaminant...

The 2025 Year in Review (That Wasn’t Supposed to Happen)

What started as a neat 15-minute intro quietly turned into a full end-of-year wrap-up. Classic Below the Surface. Gunnar and James get side-tracked almost immediately and eventually realise they have recorded the accidental 2025 BTS year in review. They cover listener feedback, behind-the-scenes stats, favourite episodes and a special mention for Sandgate.

Personal obsessions make an appearance, with both sharing their top five podcasts of the year. Strong opinions, minimal overlap, and proof that podcast hosts mostly listen to other podcasts.

On th...

What it's really like to be regulated?

Regulators, take note - this one’s for you.

We are shining the light on the third corner of the Regulator – Consultant – Client relationship: the Client. 

What’s it really like to be on the receiving end of regulation? Do operators of licensed facilities feel supported … or just scrutinised? Are those hefty licence fees worth it? And is there a fair playing field between the licensed and the “let’s-pretend-we-don’t-need-a-licence” crowd? 

Of course, it’s not all about the regulators, consultant...

The NSW Health PFAS Advice includes quite some statements:

These comments seem at odds with much of the mainstream media's presentation around PFAS. Or even the recently drastically reduced drinking water guidelines or Version 3 of the National Environmental Management Plan (NEMP) for PFAS. On top of that, the statements are unusually direct for a government publi...

Gunnar (without James this time) gives it a go to get to the bottom of the very basics of what we need to think of around stormwater on a site. There are few better suited to talk about the subject than our guest Mircea Stancu, the founder of Cleanstormwater. 

Mircea is a civil engineer, software engineer and, you guessed it, an expert in anything related to stormwater. He is also quite a flamboyant guest and he and Gunnar managed to put together a show case of the very best of (what Gunnar at least calls) attractive European a...

James K (James Karagiannis) has personally completed a stack of waste classifications. And in addition, he has reviewed somewhere between 1,000 and 1,200 reports written by other consultants for our clients. That gives him a rare, panoramic view of what great looks like … and what misses the mark.

Gunnar and Hammond, James Hammond, sit down with him to unpack what he sees when reviewing these reports. 

The original plan was to listen to James K. But with Gunnar’s well-known habit of let’s say, sharing his thoughts, and Hammond’s nerdy knowledge in resource recovery and complianc...

Tony Chappel, the CEO of the NSW EPA, is our guest today, so we are definitely back with a bang after the summer holidays. 

Gunnar and James are (surprisingly!) well-prepared and keep the conversation on track as they dive into Tony’s journey to leading the EPA, his early priorities, the role of politics in environmental regulation, and the importance of deep listening in leadership. They explore everything from the OCSE paper and the EPA's potential collaboration with industry bodies, to the tricky disconnect between waste and contaminated sites, the zero-tolerance stance on asbestos in waste, updates to...

Electric Vehicles are basically half price in Australia right now, thanks to some little-known government incentives. Gunnar and James decided it was the perfect time to talk… tax. Yes, tax. And you thought resource recovery was a boring subject, right?

But before you judge, listen to this episodes. Gunnar and James have brought in the big guns: chartered accountant Paul Mills (paulybmills at gmail.com). 

It really sounds like the beginning of a bad joke: Two engineers and an accountant meet for a podcast ... 

Somehow yet again they pull it off, though. This epis...

Gunnar claims almost all duplicates we take serve close to no purpose. If you want to know why, have a listen and be entertained and informed at the same time. 

The OGs are back together in this episode, and quite an unusual one it is. This times it is James who goes on a few rants, quite to Gunnar's amusement. Of course, Gunnar has a few things to say as well and he will definitively ruffle some feathers with this episode.

We start off with playing Wikileaks by talking about a letter the EPA sent t...

Attention Asbestos in Soils Specialists, there is a new kid in town. The Australian Standard 4964-2004 Method for the qualitative identification of asbestos in bulk samples has been superseded with a new AS 5370. 

What's different? What's better, what's worse? Why are we reporting below the detection and below the reporting limit? Is NATA on board with it? What do all those different sub-categories the laboratories report actually mean?

Gunnar is talking to Linda Apthorpe, a Certified Occupational Hygienist and Fellow of the Australian Institute of Occupational Hygienists (AIOH). Linda is Associate Principal Occupational Hygienist at H...

The Office of Chief Scientist and Engineer (OCSE) has issued recommendations concerning asbestos in waste and soil. Sarah Mansfield, Special Counsel (and environmental law superstar) at Norton Rose Fulbright, breaks down the key points and their legal implications.

Given the focus on the PoEO Act and its handling of asbestos, you'd expect at least one of our hosts to go off the rails with a classic, epic rant. But, against all odds, age, wisdom, and a dash of professionalism took the reins—so much so that this episode doesn’t even come close to earning the 'explicit' rati...

Rod Harwood - do we need to say anything else? 

There are few who have had more influence on our industry and who have contributed more than Rod. Gunnar had a chat with Rod and while they reminisce about 'the good old days', Rod sprinkles in some anecdotes of his impressive career and shares gems of his incredible knowledge as an engineer and a business man.

James was unfortunately unavailable (you know, work and stuff ...), but we promise, this is one everybody in our industry will enjoy.

BTS Episode mentioned: The Duty to R...

Gunnar and James take a dive into all sorts of events that have happened in the past few weeks.

1 - The EIANZ announces the punishment of a member. 

2 - A $30,000 fine issued by a Council

3 - MASSIVE NEWS: The Office of the Chief Scientist and Engineer has released a recommendation to the NSW Government regarding the "Management of asbestos in recovered fines and recovered materials ...".  Gunnar and James present the key points and almost find reasons to celebrate. 

We start off with an answer to the question, why there are so man...

The Duty To Report may seem like a peculiar law in our industry, yet it's just another one of the many quirky regulations that shape our environmental consulting world. As such, it was begging to be turned into a podcast episode. In fact, Gunnar and James are even joking about selling movie rights to this one—so send your offers quickly!

In this episode, Gunnar and James sit down with Elizabeth Wild, a distinguished Partner at Jones Day, to unpack the nuances of this obligation. They delve into the specifics of who is required to report, what mu...

Daniel James is someone worth knowing when you are working in our industry. Is he a contaminated sites or resource recovery leader like many of our other guests? No, but he will put you in touch with such experts if you are looking to employ one. 

His decade long experience as a specialised environmental recruiter gives him a unique insight into the workings behind the scenes of our industry. He shares his experience, talks about how he sees our industry performing in 2025, and also gives tips on how to make your next step in your career. Whether y...

Acid Sulfate Soils are a tricky subject. The second episode of our "The Basics" series is all about the ASS (oh this acronym is just endlessly amusing, isn't it?). Gunnar and James' guest is Laurie Fox, one of the most recognised and distinguished ASS experts not only in Australia, but globally. Aside from doing fantastic assessment and ASS management work on mind bogglingly big projects himself, Laurie is also committed to improving our industry's understanding of these soils. 

This improvement pathway he is on involves not only industry talks like this one, but also a tireless commitment t...

Everything you always wanted to know about planning, but were afraid to ask. If you don't get that movie reference, don't worry, it just means you are much younger than Gunnar, that's all.

We are starting a new series called The Basics and we are kicking it off with town planning as the subject. Henry Burnett of DFP Planning is our expert guest. Henry and James go back many years and aside from discussing what town planning is all about, they relive their common past as sales clerks at an outdoor and camping chain. Gunnar sits mostly...

Can eco-friendly plates and food containers made from sugarcane mulch sneak in some hidden PFAS? And can that PFAS end up in your compost, and eventually your garden soil? Cara Roberts and David Springer did the dirty work (literally) to find out. Gunnar and James couldn't wait for them to come onto the podcast and present the scoop. Tune in to hear what they uncovered! 

Oh, and this time there's no "Gunnar's gone rogue" segment. In fact, he's eating a slice of humble pie after a listener fact-checked him on one of his recent rants. Oops! After t...

Grey Areas and Loopholes – Where to Draw the Line? This episode dives into the murky waters of our industry's "grey areas", or, if we are re being honest, loopholes. From VENM (Virgin Excavated Natural Material) issues to Council demands for auditors in a gotcha move, to James's creative methods for getting trial waste recycling facilities approved, and even the use of silica gel to clean up tank pit samples - these are some of the fine lines or thin ice areas we navigate in the environmental consulting world.

Before Gunnar and James unpack their take on...

In a fictitious world where electricity reigns supreme, Gunnar has "invented" a revolutionary engine that uses ... wait for it ... petrol! That’s right, in this universe, electric engines are the norm, and Gunnar is pitching this wild idea of a new type of engine to a venture capitalist, skilfully played by James. 

We’re taking a detour from our usual lineup of site contamination, waste streams, asbestos scares, and blood lead levels. Instead, Gunnar and James are stepping into the world of dramatic fiction, or at least, are attempting to. They’re acting out a "screenplay," minus the scr...

A re-think of the classic Preliminary Site Assessment => Detailed Site Assessment => Remedial Action Plan scenario. Guest Andrew Kohlrusch, EPA Auditor and contaminated sites expert extraordinaire, joins Gunnar on an excursion to explore a more bespoke way to assess contaminated sites from the initial stages to the final remediation report. 

Of course the two veer off into their private lives first and discuss a Billy Joel Maddison Square Garden concert, whether dinner with David Bowie or Clint Eastwood would be more interesting than chatting with Louis Theroux and how working 'just two days a week' on a certain p...

Australia's landscapes are in serious need of an injection of TLC (Tender Loving Care, not some dyslexic chlorinated hydrocarbon). TLC and a bit of money. $7.3 Billion per year over 10 years to be more precise, according to a recent report published by The Wentworth Group.

Our Guest is The Wentworth Group's Prof Mike Grundy, a former Research Director, Soil and Landscapes with CSIRO, and an Adjunct Professor with the University of Sydney. We discuss what is currently going wrong with Australia's landscapes, what is needed and how can this all be financed.

This podcast is all...

Measure lead levels in blood of house sparrows and accurately predict lead blood levels in children in that town. No way? Absolutely YES WAY!

That is exactly what Prof Simon Griffith with his PhD candidate Max Gillings have achieved in one of their recent papers.

From the outside it is all so easy. Go to an area with known high lead impact (towns like Broken Hill or Mt Isa come to mind), catch a few hundred sparrows, take a blood sample from each sparrow (non-destructively by the way), analyse the blood for lead (and all...

How can young (female) professionals tackle the flood of knowledge they must acquire in a fast-paced consulting environment while at the same time having to deal with sometimes perceived but too often real disapproval by established good old boys in meetings or on construction sites? How can you tackle the ever niggling self-doubt? How can you become more like the you you want yourself to be?

Hailey Spry from Easterly Point Environmental, a DESI (that’s Queensland’s EPA) Accredited Contaminated Site Auditor and well established and respected expert in the environmental consulting scene, was generous enough to g...

The EPA names and shames a consultancy for allegedly falsifying reports. Meanwhile clients are beginning to use legal privilege as a strategy to avoid potential subpoenas — just as we anticipated in The Power Grab.

On a positive note, thanks to The Policy Predicament, the EPA has made a change to their website, now featuring all policy and regulatory updates in one easily accessible location (yay!). Kudos to the EPA!

Gunnar and James take the opportunity to talk about ethics, morals and integrity in our industry. They discuss the EIANZ's Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct, sh...

We are thrilled to host Andrew Doig from the Australian Sustainable Business Group, who brings a wealth of knowledge on waste services and legislative review. Andrew guides us through the labyrinth of waste management and landfill approval, focusing on the pressing issues in New South Wales. From the Lucas Heights extension to the Woodlawn mine approval, we dissect the challenges of expanding waste facilities amid the pervasive NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) mentality. Learn the crucial differences between putrescible and non-putrescible waste and grasp why Sydney's landfill capacity is on a ticking clock set to expire by 2028.
<...

There are few people who know more about the Resource Recovery Framework than this episode’s guest, Jason Scarborough. Jason had worked with the NSW EPA for almost 20 years where amongst other things, he was involved in the development and implementation of the initial Resource Recovery Framework. Four years ago he founded JS Regulatory Services.   

That framework has undergone a number of independent reviews and many recommendations have been made. Implementation of those recommendations is still lagging way behind schedule. 

Gunnar and James chat with Jason about how the framework has come into existence, what chang...

This week’s guest is environmental consulting superstar, Ross McFarland. He shares his thoughts on whether samples we take are actually representative of the site conditions. 

Is a 250 ml soil sample that is obtained with all our best intentions, a minute 5 g of which is then analysed, actually representative of a large area or of a large volume of soil? Have you ever stood in front of a massive stockpile of soil and wondered how in the world and from which part of the stockpile you will take samples 

Get prosecuted by the EPA and found guilty, get fined several hundred thousand Dollars and make $1.5 Million profit out of that whole scenario. 

If that sounds too much like fiction and Ocean's 11-ish, then listen into this episode. Many years ago James was involved in a big EPA investigation surrounding the Bowral Landfill. 

Gunnar and James talk about 

Bond Villains, Broke Parents and Asbestos in Soils Assessments: A Wild Ride with Pierina Otness

Gunnar and James are back with another high-flying guest on their podcast! Somehow this episode feels very James Bond-ish.

Scene 1: The Asbestos Assessment Authority

Gunnar and James, sit down with none other than Pierina Otness - the undisputed authority on asbestos in soils (ASBINS) assessments. 

Scene 2: James vs. James Bond

Gunnar feels that James needs an introduction worthy of 007. 

Scene 3: Broke Parents Club

...

The changed PoEO Act - way more than just increased penalties.

Gunnar and James found themselves in the company of not one, but two lawyers. While that usually is not a good thing no matter how you look at it, this time it’s not about courtrooms and objections, but it’s about environmental law. Darren Bick and Daniel Webster, Environmental and Planning Lawyers extraordinaire, joined the two for a chat about recent changes to the Protection of the Environment Operations Act.

Now, chatting about legal jargon might not scream "riveting podcast material," but...