Dig Me Out: 70s & 80s Metal
J, Chip, and Tim dig into the heavy rock and metal that defined two decades—from Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin’s pioneering riffs to Mötley Crüe’s sonic excess, the unsung heroes, and the stories behind it all. One album at a time. Let’s relive the magic. www.digmeoutpodcast.com
Manowar’s Kings of Metal Still Demands You Pick a Side
What happens when a band decides metal is not just a genre, but a kingdom they were born to rule?
Gavin Reid joins Jay, Tim, and Chip to dig into Manowar’s 1988 Atlantic Records album Kings of Metal. From the speed of “Wheels of Fire” to the choir-drenched drama of “Heart of Steel,” the band’s self-appointed heavy-metal coronation is more melodic, theatrical, and ambitious than its barbarian artwork suggests.[2][1]
We talk power metal, fantasy-world escapism, the title track’s undeniable chant, Joey DeMaio’s “Sting of the Bumblebee” bass showcase, a baffling song sequence, and why “Pleasure Sl...
The 1977 Album That Should Have Made Starz Famous
A Top 40 single, a Capitol Records deal, KISS-world connections, and Jack Douglas in the producer’s chair. So why is Starz’s Violation still a record most rock fans have never heard?
Jay, Tim, and Chip dig into the 1977 album that turned Starz into a musicians’ favorite without making them stars. We get into Bill Aucoin, Richie Ranno’s connection to Gene Simmons and Ozzy Osbourne auditions, “Cherry Baby” reaching No. 33, and the strange mix of power pop, hard rock, theatrical vocals, and sharp melodic turns that makes Violation both rewarding and frustrating.
If you love KISS, C...
Holland’s Little Monsters: The Chicago Metal Album That Got Lost Between Scenes
What if one of 1985’s most overlooked metal albums was not from the Sunset Strip at all?
This week, Jay, Tim, and Chip dig into Holland’s 1985 Atlantic Records debut, Little Monsters. The album won an 80 percent community runoff, and it became a first listen for all three of us. Featuring powerhouse vocalist Tom Holland and future guitar virtuoso Michael Angelo Batio, it is a tight 34-minute hard-rock record with equal parts melodic songwriting, technical guitar, Chicago identity, and mid-’80s major-label ambition.
We get into the power-pop instincts beneath the riffs, Batio’s surprisingly discipli...
Hawkwind Made Proto-Stoner Rock Before Anyone Had a Name for It
A Swedish band nobody outside Scandinavia ever heard live sounds like it was mixed by people who actually understood 80s post-punk instead of just imitating it. This episode, guest Darren Leach brings his first pick from the 2000s: Cut City's 2007 debut Exit Decades, a nine-song, 34-minute record that channels Joy Division, The Sound, and early Interpol while arriving a few years after the post-punk revival's commercial peak. We dig into the mechanical-versus-expressive tension in the arrangements, the mix that lets every instrument breathe, and why the album might be missing the one quirky vocal hook that made its peers...
Tora Tora Sounds Like Judas Priest Fighting Aerosmith
Tora Tora beat Metallica in a poll. That alone should tell you something about how this show works.
This 80s Metal episode covers Tora Tora's 1989 debut Surprise Attack, the surprise winner of a four-way Patreon poll against Metallica's Master of Puppets, Slade's Keep Your Hands Off My Power Supply, and Motörhead's Iron Fist. The Memphis band's blend of Judas Priest style riffing and Beale Street blues set them apart from the Sunset Strip pack, and the hosts dig into the record's three singles, its reverb-heavy production, a firsthand tour bus story from 1992, and the band's ongoing r...
The 1970 Billy Joel Metal Album That Time Forgot
Billy Joel in a metal band sounds like a late night joke, but Attila’s lone 1970 album is a lot stranger and heavier than the punchlines suggest. In this episode, we dig into the self titled organ driven proto metal record he cut with drummer Jon Small for Epic Records, from the meat locker cover photo to the stories of audiences fleeing their short lived club sets. We trace Joel’s path from Long Island psych rockers The Hassles to Attila’s Hammond through Marshall tone, then forward to Cold Spring Harbor and Piano Man, asking how one songwriter could...
Yngwie J. Malmsteen's Rising Force Turns 41: Why It Still Matters
A nineteen year old singer, a guitarist who barely wanted him there, and a record that split guitar playing into two schools for the rest of the decade. This week our 90s specialist Jeremy Amend crosses into 80s metal for his first time, bringing us Yngwie J. Malmsteen's Rising Force, the 1984 debut that crystallized neoclassical shred into an actual genre. We dig into the mystery of the "J" in his name, Jeff Scott Soto's wild resume, why this album opened the door for Shrapnel Records and guys like Steve Vai and Joe Satriani, and whether the two vocal tracks...
1976: The Year Guitar Rock Split In Two
1976 was supposed to belong to disco, soft rock, and singer‑songwriters. Yet in the shadows of “Disco Lady,” “A Fifth of Beethoven,” and “Silly Love Songs,” guitar bands were quietly rebuilding what hard rock and metal could be. Boston’s basement‑crafted debut exploded onto Epic Records, Thin Lizzy dropped Jailbreak and Johnny the Fox in the same year, and Judas Priest, Scorpions, Rainbow, and Rush started sketching out the next decade of heavy music.
In this roundtable, we go deep into the albums of 1976 that still matter for 70s and 80s metal and hard rock. We talk Kiss’ double‑...
1986: The Year Glam and Thrash Both Peaked at the Same Time
On daytime MTV, Bon Jovi was becoming the biggest pop-rock act on the planet. Poison was setting the blueprint for everything pop culture now calls hair metal. At the same time, Metallica, Slayer, and Megadeth: were building massive and devoted audiences. These two worlds shared MTV, shared tour bills, and shared fans who were being asked to pick a side. That tension is what makes 1986 unlike any other year in metal history.
The Glam Explosion That Broke Daytime MTV
Here’s what happened between 1984 and 1986: metal expanded beyond just being scary.
After Quiet Ri...
Black Roses Original Motion Picture Soundtrack (1988): The King Kobra Album Hidden Inside a B-Movie
In 1988, a straight-to-VHS satanic panic horror film called Black Roses went nowhere fast. The movie itself is, by any honest assessment, terrible: bright red fake blood, rubber monster suits, Vincent Pastore as a concerned father, and a teacher who kills a possessed student with a tennis racket. What the film left behind, almost accidentally, was a soundtrack worth arguing about.
The musicians behind the fictional band Black Roses are King Cobra's core lineup: Marcie Free, Mick Sweda, Carmine Appice, and Chuck Wright. They show up alongside Lizzy Borden, Bang Tango (in their first commercial recording ever, predating...
Gang of Four’s Entertainment!: Punk, Funk, and the Politics of Rhythm
Gang of Four’s Entertainment! is the moment post‑punk stopped being a scene and started sounding like a threat. This 1979 debut didn’t just tweak punk’s formula—it rewired it, turning guitars into percussion, bass into a funk‑driven anchor, and lyrics into a full‑frontal critique of capitalism, modern life, and what it even means to be “punk” in the first place.
In this episode of Dig Me Out, Jason, Tim, and Chip dig into how Entertainment! won a razor‑thin community poll over The Damned, Lone Star, and Throbbing Gristle, then unpack why listeners still figh...
The Hummingbirds Gave the Lemonheads Their Biggest Hit
Returning Dig Me Out Union patron Josh Page is back from Australia with his second pick, and this one is geo-locked to his home country for most of the world. The Hummingbirdsformed in Sydney in 1986, signed to rooArt Records (the label founded by INXS manager Chris Murphy), and recorded their debut loveBUZZ in 1989 with producer Mitch Easter, the same man behind R.E.M.'s Murmur and Reckoning. The album hit ARIA #31, the single "Blush" reached #19, and they went Gold in Australia. Outside Australia, almost nobody has ever heard it.
Jay, Tim, and Chip dig into the...
Stevie Wright's Hard Road Is the AC/DC Prequel Nobody Told You About
The name Stevie Wright probably doesn't ring a bell. It should. Wright was the lead singer of The Easybeats, Australia's first international rock act and the band that gave the world "Friday on My Mind" in 1965. Then he made Hard Road.
Released in 1974 and produced by Harry Vanda and George Young, the duo who would immediately go on to produce AC/DC's first six albums. Hard Road features Malcolm Young on guitar and a teenage Angus Young as the live touring band. The title track is, as patron Gavin Reid puts it, "Highway to Hell was a...
Metal Church's The Dark: The Album That Got Buried By 1986
You Opened for Metallica. You Got MTV Airplay. So Why Does Nobody Know Your Name?
The strange disappearance of Metal Church and The Dark
The Dark earned its place on the turntable the way all our episodes do: through community vote. It pulled 47% of combined Patreon and Substack poll votes, beating out Fastway, early Pantera, and Metallica to claim this week's dig. If you have an album you think deserves a closer listen, suggest it here and let the community decide.
You toured with Metallica. You got MTV airplay. You peaked at #92 on...
Skyhooks’ Living in the 70s: The Most Important Australian Rock Album You’ve Never Heard
Skyhooks – Living in the 70s (1974) | 70s Rock Deep Dive
What if the most important rock album of 1974 never made it out of its home country? In Australia, Skyhooks’ debut Living in the 70s was a cultural earthquake — 16 weeks at #1, the highest-selling Australian album of its time, six songs banned from commercial radio, and a bill where AC/DC and Split Ends opened for them. Outside Australia? Complete silence for fifty years.
Jason, Tim, and Chip dig into this theatrical, bass-driven, gloriously weird debut from Melbourne’s most provocative band — a record that sounds like Alice Cooper, Ro...
The Secret Handshake: Why Dangerous Toys Never Became a Household Name
Dangerous Toys (self-titled, 1989) was brought to the show by Dig Me Out community member Keith Miller, who nominated it for the December 2025 Patreon poll, and the community agreed, sending it to the top with 37% of the vote over LA Guns, Ozzy’s Diary of a Madman, and Lillian Axe. Keith clearly knew what he was doing. Want to bring YOUR favorite lost or overlooked album to the table? Suggest it for a future episode or community poll.
It went Gold. It spent 36 weeks on the Billboard 200. It was all over Headbangers Ball. So why does Dangerous Toys fe...
The 1973 Album by The Sensational Alex Harvey Band That Sounds Like Rocky Horror Meets AC/DC
A Scottish cult hero. A seven-minute pseudo-electronic epic. A song literally called “Gang Bang.” This episode dives into Next (1973) by the Sensational Alex Harvey Band, a glam-adjacent, piano-driven, theatrical rock album that turned Cleveland into a true-believer city while barely registering anywhere else. If you’ve ever wondered how a band could sound like AC/DC fronted by a cabaret singer, this one’s for you.
The conversation unpacks how Next won a community poll over Santana, Mountain, and Babe Ruth, then zooms into what makes this record so strange and so compelling: Alex Harvey’s gravelly, Bon Scott–...
Before You Replay Master of Puppets, Hear This
When an Australian thrash band that never broke big in the U.S. gets compared to early Metallica, Slayer, and Maiden in the same breath, you know you’ve stumbled onto something special. This episode dives into Mortal Sin’s 1986 debut Mayhemic Destruction—a ferocious, drum‑heavy, DIY thrash record from Sydney that plays like a missing puzzle piece in 80s metal history.
Across the conversation, the hosts unpack how Mortal Sin emerged out of Australia’s pub‑rock and Buffalo‑style heavy scene into a faster, more aggressive sound after drummer Wayne Campbell discovered Metallica through tape‑trading i...
Agitation Free: The Album Nobody Remembers (But Tangerine Dream Does)
Ever heard of a band that traveled to Egypt on a Goethe Institute tour, recorded street sounds in Cairo bazaars, then came home to Berlin and created one of the most mind-bending krautrock albums of the ’70s? This week, we’re digging into Malesch by Agitation Free—a 1972 experimental masterpiece that won our listener poll despite none of us having ever heard it before. This is pure discovery territory.
In this episode, we explore how a Berlin rock band named themselves after playing a free show, lost their drummer to Tangerine Dream, then embarked on a two-week Middle...
Nothing But a Good Time… or Cold War Therapy?
What if the “dumb party metal” you grew up with turned out to be one of the sharpest mirrors of 1980s America? In this episode of Dig Me Out: 80s Metal, we sit down with author, professor, and 80s tribute-band guitarist Jesse Kavadlo to talk about his new book Rock of Pages: The Literary Tradition of 1980s Heavy Metal and why those songs about girls, demons, and good times were actually wrestling with nuclear fear, censorship, and what it meant to grow up under the Cold War.
Jesse walks us through how 80s metal lyrics connect to clas...
46% of Our Community Voted for This Leafhound Album—Here’s Why They Were Right
What if Led Zeppelin had a long-lost twin that nobody remembers? In this episode of Dig Me Out, we unearth Leafhound’s 1971 proto-metal masterpiece Growers of Mushroom—an album that had all the ingredients for greatness but somehow slipped through the cracks of rock history . With a Robert Plant-caliber vocalist, Jimmy Page-inspired guitar tones, and riffs heavy enough to rival Black Sabbath, Leafhound created one of the most compelling “what if?” stories in early 70s heavy rock .
Born from the remains of Black Cat Bones—the band that spawned Free’s Paul Kossoff and Simon Kirk, plus Foghat’s Rod...
Is Living Colour’s Vivid the Most Underrated Guitar Album of the 80s?
Living Colour’s Vivid: When Rock Refused to Play by the Rules
What happens when a jazz-trained guitar virtuoso teams up with a Broadway-bound singer, adds Mick Jagger as producer, and sets out to demolish the color lines that 1980s radio had drawn around rock music? You get Vivid, Living Colour’s 1988 debut that kicked down every door with “Cult of Personality” and then refused to play by anyone’s rules.
This is an album that proved Black musicians could dominate every corner of rock, from shredding metal to funk grooves to social commentary. It reached nu...
Motörhead’s Ace of Spades: The Bar Band That Accidentally Redefined Heavy
Motörhead - Ace of Spades: The Bar Band That Redefined Metal (Whether They Liked It Or Not)
What happens when you salvage a beaten‑up classic from the graveyard? You discover why Motörhead’s Ace of Spades remains one of the most influential rock albums of all time—even if Lemmy himself refused to call it metal.
Recorded in six weeks during the summer of 1980 and unleashed that October, Ace of Spades is 36 minutes of raw, boogie‑infused rock and roll cranked up to 11. On this episode of Dig Me Out: 80s Metal, hosts Jaso...
What If Queensrÿche Only Made This One Record?
Before Operation: Mindcrime, there was this.
Queensrÿche’s 1984 debut The Warning is the album that almost didn’t happen—at least not the way the band intended. While they were touring Japan, EMI executives remixed and completely rearranged their progressive metal masterpiece without permission, burying the band’s weirdest, most ambitious material deeper in the tracklist. But even with corporate interference, The Warning stands as a pivotal moment in metal history: a Seattle band crafting something that sounded like nothing else in 1984, blending Iron Maiden gallops with Genesis-level prog complexity and Jeff Tate’s otherworldly operatic vocals.
...Pluto (1971): From Record Bin Oddity to Cult Classic
Ever wondered why some killer 70s rock albums slipped through history’s cracks? This week, Dig Me Out listeners unearth Pluto’s self-titled 1971 LP—an overlooked slab of psychedelic hard rock, boogie vibes, and vintage cosmic groove. Join us as we dig up the story of the London band with festival creds, a jaw-dropping album cover, and a sound that’s part Blue Öyster Cult, part proto-metal pioneers, but all obscurity.
Pluto wasn’t a household name, but they were closer to the big leagues than you’d think: opening for Thin Lizzy and T. Rex, dropping a record with...
What Makes Testament’s Second Album a Thrash Masterclass?
When Testament finished touring behind their debut album The Legacy, they had zero songs written for a follow-up. The label didn’t care—they demanded another record immediately. Scrambling to fulfill their contract’s 40-minute minimum, the Bay Area thrash band wrote The New Order in the studio, added an Aerosmith cover, tossed in some classical-influenced instrumentals, and somehow delivered one of 1988’s most essential thrash metal albums.
In this episode of Dig Me Out 80s Metal, hosts Jason Ziak, Tim Minneci, and Chip Midnight explore how Testament turned deadline panic into precision thrash. They break down Alex Sko...
Zakk Wylde’s Origin Story: How a 19-Year-Old New Jersey Guitarist Transformed Ozzy Osbourne’s Sound on No Rest for the Wicked
What happens when a 40-year-old metal legend discovers he’s still got more fire in his belly than anyone expected? Welcome to the untold story of Ozzy Osbourne’s “No Rest for the Wicked” — the 1988 double-platinum beast that time somehow forgot, despite launching one of metal’s most influential guitar partnerships and serving up the perfect middle finger to moral crusaders everywhere.
This episode digs deep into the album that saw Ozzy team up with unknown 19-year-old guitarist Zakk Wylde, whose pinch harmonics and dive bombs would reshape the sound of metal for decades to come. From the Jimmy Sw...
Before The Final Countdown: Europe’s Heavy-Hitting Second Act
Unearthing Europe’s Metal Roots: Wings of Tomorrow Revisited
Have you ever wondered what Europe sounded like before “The Final Countdown” catapulted them to global fame? This week on Dig Me Out, we dive deep into Wings of Tomorrow, the underrated second album that proves Europe cut their teeth in raw ’80s metal—long before synths and stadium choruses took over.
In this episode, your hosts Jason Ziap, Tim Minnichi, and Chip Midnight peel back the layers of Wings of Tomorrow to reveal a band straddling the New Wave of British Heavy Metal and European hard rock...
Fearless, Fast, and Forever: Iron Maiden’s 80s Reign
Iron Maiden fans, get ready for a deep dive into five decades of heavy metal legend. This week, Dig Me Out welcomes celebrated author Daniel Bukszpan—the mind behind Iron Maiden at 50—a passionate and visually stunning tribute chronicling the band's journey from East London pubs to global stadiums. Bukszpan’s new book, released September 16th, pays homage to Maiden’s 50th anniversary by exploring fifty pivotal moments: classic albums, lineup shakeups, infamous tours, and milestone performances. Packed with revealing anecdotes, candid photography, and rare memorabilia, Iron Maiden at 50 isn’t just a celebration—it’s an essential resource for anyone who...
The Million Dollar Metal Album That Vanished Into Thin Air
When Capitol Records’ Next Quiet Riot Vanished Into Thin Air
Ever wonder what happens when a dream team of rock royalty assembles to create the perfect 80s metal album—only to watch it disappear during the mastering process? Icon’s Night of the Crime is the Phoenix-born tragedy that sits at the very top of the “could have, should have been huge” list, featuring Eddie Kramer behind the boards, Ron Nevison on the mix, and Bob Halligan Jr. crafting radio-ready hooks that Kerrang! Magazine would later rank as the third greatest AOR album of all time.
In this...
The First Death Metal Album Ever? | 80s Metal Podcast
Death’s Scream Bloody Gore: The Album That Birthed Death Metal
What happens when a 19-year-old horror movie fanatic from Florida decides to create the heaviest music imaginable? You get Scream Bloody Gore, the 1987 debut that didn’t just launch Death’s career—it created an entire genre. This is the album that made death metal official, complete with the perfect band name to match.
In this episode, hosts Jay, Tim, and Chip dive deep into Chuck Schuldiner’s groundbreaking vision that transformed from rejected Florida demos to a Billboard-charting phenomenon. They explore how Combat Records to...
Captain Beyond - Captain Beyond | 70s Rock Podcast
Ready for a cosmic discovery? Imagine if members of Deep Purple, Iron Butterfly, and Johnny Winter’s bands joined forces for one brief, blazing psychedelic trip—left behind in the dusty bins of 1970s rock. That’s Captain Beyond: a cult supergroup whose self-titled debut LP isn’t just underrated, but a secret handshake among true riff obsessives, stoner rock aficionados, and prog heads alike.
In this episode, the Dig Me Out crew dives deep into Captain Beyond’s 1972 debut, unpacking how a band with pedigree and ambition—yet dogged by legal drama and label confusion—could create an albu...
Rikki Rockett - Interview | 80s Metal Podcast
What happens when Poison’s fire-brand drummer trades stadium pyrotechnics for scrappy club gigs, hand-picks BulletBoys shredder Mick Sweda, and dares to mash up Duran Duran with T. Rex? Meet Rikki Rockett’s Rocket Mafia—the “anti-cover-band” cover band that’s rewriting the rules of ’80s metal nostalgia while plotting its own originals.
Rikki Rockett—fresh off the Stadium Tour and revved up by motorcycle charity gigs—drops in to reveal how Rocket Mafia started as a one-off set for the Distinguished Gentleman’s Ride and snowballed into a high-octane passion project.
- Origin story: from Taylor Hawkins’...
Glam Metal in the 80s | 80s Metal Podcast
Ever wonder why 80s glam metal still packs out tribute nights and sparks passionate debates decades later? This week on Dig Me Out, we’re throwing on the leather, cranking the Aquanet, and diving into the wild, hook-filled world of 80s Glam Metal—the scene that turned the Sunset Strip into rock’s most outrageous runway and gave us anthems for every party, heartbreak, and hair-flip in between.
From the genre’s glitter-soaked roots to its neon-tinted MTV heyday and eventual fall from grace, our roundtable takes on the big questions: What truly defines glam metal? Why did it e...
Megadeth - Peace Sells... but Who's Buying? | 80s Metal Podcast
The Riffs, the Ruin, and the Rise of Thrash
What do you get when two broke metalheads with a single bass and guitar channel their chaos into one of thrash metal’s most iconic records? In 1986, Peace Sells... but Who’s Buying? marked Megadeth’s leap from Combat Records obscurity to Capitol-backed cult status. This episode of Dig Me Out unpacks how a band teetering on collapse crafted a cornerstone of ‘80s metal.
We dig into the album’s razor-sharp riffs, jazz-influenced drumming, and Dave Mustaine’s snarky lyrical persona. From iconic MTV News basslines to heroin-fu...
Enuff Z'Nuff - Enuff Z'Nuff | 80s Metal Revisited
The Glam Album That’s Actually Power Pop Gold: Enuff Z’Nuff’s Dazzling 1989 Debut
You’ve seen the neon. You’ve heard the name. But have you listened? Enuff Z’Nuff’s self-titled 1989 debut is a glittering paradox: glam on the outside, power pop on the inside. Packed with lush harmonies, Beatlesque melodies, and MTV-ready swagger, it was a record caught between worlds—and in this episode, we unpack every hook, story, and squealing solo.
We dig into why this record, released in the chaos of late-’80s rock, still feels so timeless. From the genre-defying...
Lizzy Borden - Master of Disguise | 80s Metal Revisited
Before grunge wiped off the makeup and mainstream critics dismissed theatrical metal as style over substance, Lizzy Borden dropped one of the most ambitious—and overlooked—albums of the 1980s. Released in 1989, Master of Disguiseblended glam metal, power ballads, orchestral flourishes, and horror-movie aesthetics into a concept record that was equal parts rock opera and emotional purge.
In this episode, we dig deep into how Master of Disguise pushed past genre expectations and created a space where the freaks, misfits, and dreamers could feel seen. From its reported inspiration from The Lost Boys to its cinematic flourishes (yes...
Lita Ford - Lita | 80s Metal Revisited
Before “Close My Eyes Forever” lit up the charts, before Headbanger’s Ball turned her into a fixture, Lita Ford was already a rock warrior—grinding through the scene, guitar in hand, defying expectations. In this episode, we dig into Lita(1988), the album that wasn’t just a comeback—it was a recalibration of what a woman in hard rock could sound like, look like, and fight for.
We explore how Ford’s solo career almost stalled out before a four-year gap led to her biggest moment yet. With Ozzy Osbourne on the mic, Lemmy and Nikki Sixx in the wr...
Celtic Frost - Into the Pandemonium | 80s Metal Revisited
What happens when a band ditches thrash just as it goes mainstream… and dives headfirst into French poetry, industrial noise, and orchestral arrangements? You get Into the Pandemonium by Celtic Frost, a boundary-shattering 1987 album that still divides, bewilders, and inspires.
In this episode, we dig deep into this genre-defying masterpiece that blurred the lines between black metal, gothic atmospheres, and avant-garde experimentation. Was it ahead of its time or just too weird to work? Either way, it’s unforgettable.
We explore the album’s fascinating backstory—from label resistance and chart failure to its underground cult sta...
The Saints - I’m Stranded | 70s Rock Revisited
What if one of punk rock’s most essential records wasn’t born in London or New York—but in a repressive corner of 1970s Australia? In this episode, we dive into I’m Stranded, the ferocious, lo-fi debut from Brisbane’s own The Saints—a band that burned bright before punk even knew what it was supposed to sound like.
Recorded in just two days with cranked amps, no overdubs, and a heavy dose of youth rebellion, I’m Stranded delivers raw power with surprising musical depth. The Saints weren’t copying anyone—they couldn’t. Isolated from punk’s...