Rock That Doesn't Roll: The Story of Christian Music

This episode was originally published in 2025.

Glenn Kaiser has had a huge influence on Christian music as a musician, a festival co-founder and an outspoken thought leader. He was our top guest choice for our live taping in January of 2025 in Chicago.

While Glenn Kaiser is a singular figure in the world of Christian music, we are aware that Jesus People USA is a triggering topic for some listeners. For a more thorough examination of Jesus People USA check out the book Grey Sabbath or for the perspective of abuse survivors from JPUSA, the film...

This episode was originally published in 2024.

In 1999, ​singer-songwriter Jennifer Knapp was at the top of the Christian music world. Her debut album Kansas was gold-certified, she'd won four Gospel Music Association Dove Awards, and she was on tour with some of the top bands in the business. It seemed like Knapp was destined to be the ultimate ​rockstar poster child for evangelical teens - especially young women. But ​that frame was ​an uncomfortable​ fit for Knapp​. She was an adult convert, and the evangelical norms that young women learned from the world of CCM were new to her. Eventua...

This a special addendum episode to season 4. Nico Muhly is an extremely accomplished composer known for work with Sufjan Stevens, Bjork, Grizzly Bear, Steve Reich, Philip Glass and so much more (including two operas for The Met). He's also had a sort of parallel career composing sacred music in the English choral tradition. On Sunday, October 4, 2026 a sacred music piece he made as composer in residence at Christ Church Oxford will have its NYC debut at Carnegie Hall. We had a wide-ranging discussion with Nico about his approach to composition and how he moves between the high art world...

This is episode was originally released in 2024.

If there's one music genre lampooned more than Christian rock, it might just be ska. And Christian ska? Expect next level ridicule. But a lovable band of misfits from Denver, Colorado managed to do something that might seem unthinkable: combine two maligned genres and become a cultural phenomenon with an enduring cult following. On the season two finale of Rock that Doesn't Roll, music journalist Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) follow the unlikely rise...

This episode was originally published in 2023.

For 1990s evangelical teens, punk, hardcore, and ska were a gateway to a passionate, edgy way to express their Christianity outside the mainstream. But was the music and the message enough to keep the evangelical faith? In this episode, originally published in October 2023, hosts Andrew Gill and Leah Payne follow three Christian punk rock stories from Dr. Bradley Onishi of Axis Mundi Media, author D.L. Mayfield, and Tim Whitaker of The New Evangelicals as they share their stories of loving, leaving, or holding on to evangelical Christianity - and the...

Adam Voith began his career in the music industry alongside the early bands riding the Tooth and Nail boom, blurring the line between Christian rock and the secular music industry. He went on to be a booking agent with clients including Vampire Weekend, Bon Iver, Haim, The Mountain Goats, Father John Misty and more. Now he's retired from the music industry and has gone back to his first love: independent publishing. He's just released his third novel, fictionalizing his experiences in the Christian rock world alongside the band Roadside Monument (with cameos from MXPX, Joe Christmas,Trey Many of...

Matt Hinton has only been a member of Luxury for 27 years, so he's the new guy in the band. He's also a documentary filmmaker with two feature length films to his name: Awake My Soul: The Story of The Sacred Harp (co-directed with Erica Hinton) and Parallel Love, which is the story of Luxury.

Awake My Soul has been reissued in HD and with other assorted improvements. To mark the occasion, a number of theatrical screening are happening around the country. Find one near you at https://awakemysoul.com/

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Scott Hatch grew up Methodist, but learned about DIY music at his college radio station. When he started his label, Burnt Toast Vinyl, in 1996 he put out bands that had a similar background to him- fellow youth group kids. 

One of those youth group kids was Randall Stephens. He grew up Nazarene, but was inspired by bands like Pavement and Guided By Voices to start the band Jetenderpaul in the early 1990s. After releasing three albums and a handful of singles for Velvet Blue Music and Burnt Toast Vinyl, Stephens went on to become a respected academic w...

Scott Carter is the host of Ye Gods, a podcast and public radio show that explores codes of religious, cultural and secular conduct with notable guests like Martin Short, Killer Mike and Moon Zappa among many others. Scott is an award-winning executive producer and writer, known for his work on Real Time with Bill Maher and Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher.

In this interview he shares how his views on religion have shifted over his life, the role music plays in his spiritual practice and shares Hollywood stories about Martin Scorcese, Gary Shandling. Brian Wilson and more.<...

Chad Matheny is better known by his folk punk band name, Emperor X. His 12th full length album, Unified Field, is out on June 26 and features a single called "Praise Jesus! Hail Reagan!" Much of the album was recorded in Ukraine during the war with Russia. Chad has lived in Berlin, Germany since 2012.

Chad also happens to be a friend of Andrew Gill's since they attended public middle school and high school together in Jacksonville, Florida.

This episode includes discussion of Chad's megachurch upbringing, his thoughts on the "trad cath" trend, why more leftists need...

Jewly Hight is a noted music journalist best known for her work with NPR Music, Nashville Public Radio, The Bitter Southerner and more. She's also a friend of Leah's from their days together in grad school at Vanderbilt Divinity School. In this conversation we talk about how Jewly got into music, her most regrettable tattoo, her feud with the Supertones' singer, clogging, Jelly Roll and so much more. 

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Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at ‪(629) 204-4264‬.

If Rock That Doesn...

Flamy Grant may be the world's only Christian drag queen songwriter. She's one of the few queer artists to ever top the Christian music category in the iTunes Store. She's also a guest we've wanted to have on the show since before season one launched. We get an update on whether Flamy and Amy Grant have met yet, manifest a few dreams and get to the heart of what keeps Flamy performing in churches. Also, we consider the possibility of approaching drag as a folk art form. 

Flamy also answers questions posed by members of our Patreon c...

Nina Hagen is a true legend. She's considered an icon of German culture. And she's known as "the Godmother of German Punk." But our interview with her revealed that she also should be considered a longtime Jesus Freak. Her latest album, "Highway To Heaven" was released earlier in 2026.

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Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at ‪(629) 204-4264‬.

If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not th...

Tim Dillinger returns to the podcast to continue our examination of 1985 as a pivotal year in Christian music. This time his focus is on artists who tried to break into the Christian industry, including Donna Summer and Maria Muldaur. He also discusses Lone Justice, Mr Mister, Steve Arrington and Tremaine Hawkins. He also reflects on how the industry in 2026 compares to what was happening in 1985. 

For more on all of these artists, subscribe to Tim's Substack: God's Music Is My Life. 

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Rosie Thomas is a singer-songwriter who came up alongside artists like Damien Jurado, Pedro The Lion and Sufjan Stevens. She was one of the first folk artists signed to Sub Pop Records and had a long-running comedic alter ego named Sheila Saputo. Her most recent music project is Lullabies For Parents.

In this interview she talks about her experience as a child performing in musicals, joining Velour100, working at a daycare with Damien Jurado, signing to Sub Pop, performing at Lilith Fair in 2010, breaking through Sufjan Stevens' defenses and acting alongside Steve Zahn. 

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In the late 1990's Andrew Osenga's high school band caught the ear of a member of Whiteheart. That led Osenga to Nashville and his band, The Normals, releasing three albums on ForeFront Records. In the decades since The Normals disbanded, Osenga has toured as a member of Caedmon's Call, worked as a music executive, written the book How To Remember and created the podcast, The Pivot, to just scratch the surface of his CV. 

In this conversation we talk about how touring with The Normals exposed Osenga to a wider variety of Christian religious traditions than his s...

Jeremy Alder is a comedian who mines his life as a homeschooled youth group kid growing up in Texas for jokes that will probably be very relatable for our audience. We talk with Jeremy about his special, Purity Pants, his album, Almost A Grown Man, and his failed Christian rock band, Nineveh (or 9veh if Jeremy had his way). 

Jeremy also is a seminary graduate, a former preacher and creator of the series "Christians Who Don't Suck" on his Instagram. 

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Sam Sanders is the host of The Sam Sanders Show from KCRW. He was a founding host of The NPR Politics Podcast and It's Been A Minute from NPR. Sam grew up in the Black Pentecostal church in Texas, where he played saxophone in the church band. Eventually he would sneak riffs from D'Angelo's Voodoo album into improvised sections of church services. In 2025 The Sam Sanders Show won the Signal Award for Best Spirituality Show.

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Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Want to contribute to...

Rock That Doesn't Roll is coming back with Season 4 launching on March 4th. We'll be publishing every other week after that. 

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at ‪(629) 204-4264‬.

If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount)

Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr

If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about t...

This episode is a feed drop from Transmissions with Jason Woodbury from Aquarium Drunkard. Here's their original show notes:

This week, we have an exceedingly rare interview with Jason Martin, of California dream pop band Starflyer 59. Fermented in the nascent Riverside dream pop underground alongside his brother Ronnie Martin of Joy Electric in the early '90s, Martin's band SF59 released its debut album, Silver, 30 years ago in 1994 on the fledgling Tooth & Nail label. His latest, Lust for Gold, finds him winking knowingly at the title of his 1995 album Gold, a record routinely cited as one of...

Introducing The Sam Sanders Show from KCRW

This episode is a perfect fit for Rock That Doesn't Roll.

Big Freedia is best known as the Queen of Bounce, but her new album Pressing Onward showcases her gospel choir roots.

She tells Sam about growing up as a young gay church kid in New Orleans, what moved her to make a gospel album, and how twerking and praising God go hand in hand. Plus, she breaks down her iconic feature on Beyoncé’s 2016 hit single “Formation.”

Follow Sam Sanders on Instagram.

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It's our third annual Christmas special! Leah and Andrew are joined by returning guests Kelsey Kramer McGinnis and Daniel Gill. Everyone brought a Christmas song or two to celebrate and we even hear some picks from listeners. We've survived 2025. That's reason to celebrate.

Daniel's 23 hour Christmas Playlist.

Leave us a message at ‪(629) 204-4264‬.

To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr

You can always make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr

You can connect with us on Instagram or by emai...

Co-host and producer Andrew Gill's day job is with Sound Opinions. He recently interviewed John Darnielle of The Mountain Goats, so we're doing a feed drop here of that episode. 

To share a song pick for the Rock That Doesn't Roll Christmas Special, call ‪(629) 204-4264‬ and leave a message. 

To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr

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John Darnielle of The Mountain Goats discusses his new book, "This Year: 365 Songs Annotated: A Book of Days" and his new album "Through This Fire Across...

Please enjoy this episode from a podcast we love: When We All Get To Heaven. 

To share a song pick for the Rock That Doesn't Roll Christmas Special, call ‪(629) 204-4264‬ and leave a message. 

To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr

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In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they’ve lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church’s services d...

In our season three finale, we tell the full story of Steve Scott's lost records that Larry Norman produced in 1978, but never released. Moving Pictures (and its companion Close Ups) were victims of short-sighted Christian music industry executives and a myriad of bad circumstances after being recorded and they have lived in lore among frustrated record collectors for decades. Now they are close to finally being released. 

As Larry Norman was dying in 2008 he made a last request of his brother, who goes by Charles Normal, to ensure that the Steve Scott records be released someday. Charles h...

Todd Fadel is our guest this week. He is an individual whose life experiences defy easy categorization. He was the lead singer of a Star Wars-themed side project to Tooth and Nail grunge band Sometime Sunday. He was a worship leader at a non-traditional church in Portland, Oregon. He helped run TOMFest. He's also a big fan of Evie. 

Most of our conversation in this episode is about his work running Meow Meow, an all-ages venue in Portland that straddled the Christian and secular music worlds in the early 2000s. 

Adam Voith's novel in progress th...

David Dark is a life-long Nashvillian and an admitted member of what he calls "The Prayer Trade" as a professor of religion and the arts at Belmont University. In 2002 he published his first book, "Everyday Apocalypse: The Sacred Revealed in Radiohead, The Simpsons, and Other Pop Culture Icons." At the time he was involved in The Art House along with Leah and Charlie Peacock. 

Now David has reissued the book as "Everyday Apocalypse: Art, Empire, and the End of the World" or if you're a Swiftie "Everyday Apocalypse (David's Version)." 

Hosts Andrew Gill and Leah Pa...

The English worship band Delirious (technically Deliriou5?) certainly changed church music and probably influenced a young Chris Martin of Coldplay, but was their lasting impact on music bigger than Nirvana's? That's the case made in a social media video by our guest today, Gabriel Wilson. 

Wilson is a veteran of worship bands both as a musician and producer. He once toured with Delirious and has produced Delirious singer Martin Smith in the studio. He also has a deep respect for Nirvana. Andrew and Leah dig into his case for Delirious having a larger impact on music writ l...

Aaron Carnes is an expert on ska, but is self-aware enough that his book (and podcast) are called In Defense of Ska. Like Christian rock, when folks admit to liking ska they often brace for being mocked. Aaron knows something about both worlds since he was only allowed to listen to CCM growing up. 

This conversation is wide-ranging, covering the roots of ska (Madness didn't invent it), the waves of reinvention it has survived and how it was put to use by Christians to good effect (Five Iron Frenzy, The Israelites, Runforyerlife) and questionable effect (The OC S...

The Charlie Kirk Memorial in Arizona was a singular event that blended religion and politics in powerful ways. It featured a lot of Christian music. Brandon Lake, Chris Tomlin, Phil Wickham, Kari Jobe Carnes, Cody Carnes and Tiffany Hudson all led the 100,000 people in the stadium and estimated 20 million watching online in worship songs. To analyze what it means that these artists performed at this event and how their music functioned in the event, we're joined by Kelsey Kramer McGinnis and David Gate. 

Kelsey Kramer McGinnis is a musicologist, worship music correspondent for Christianity Today, and co-author o...

After 15 weekly episodes in season 3, Leah and Andrew chat about what else they've been up to this fall, what episodes they've especially enjoyed this season, and what they're looking forward to in upcoming episodes.

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Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264‬.

If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not...

Chris DeVille wrote the book on the indie rock boom (Such Great Heights: The Complete Cultural History of the Indie Rock Explosion), but before he became a self-confessed "indie snob" he was a willing listener of Christian rock. In this conversation we discuss the influence of Pitchfork on musical tastes and how specific signifiers could have an outsized impact on critical coverage in the blog era. Artists discussed include 4Him, Stavesacre, Sufjan Stevens, Pedro The Lion, Cameron Winter, Neutral Milk Hotel and, of course, Carman. 

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In 1985 the Contemporary Christian Music industry reached a cultural height it would never regain. That's the basic case that Tim Dillinger has been making lately in his Substack, God's Music Is My Life. With artists like Amy Grant, Leslie Phillips, Sheila Walsh, Tramaine Hawkins and Rez Band pushing the boundaries of CCM from the inside, and mainstream acts like Maria Muldour and Mr. Mister pushing into CCM from the outside, 1985 was a year like no other, according to Tim. Would you believe that the downfall of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker's PTL empire in 1987 would reshape the Christian landscape...

Katie Thornton loves radio. Her series The Divided Dial has delved into conservative talk radio and shortwave. It won a 2023 Peabody Award. And her piece for Rolling Stone, "Jesus Take The Dial" goes in depth on CCM radio giant K-LOVE's operations. 

We talk with Thornton about how K-LOVE's parent company has used its non-profit status to build a broadcasting behemoth and the downstream effects that has on American culture. We also discuss the Christian music she actually enjoys, her contrarian take on Bob Dylan and how K-LOVE compares to Salem Media Group, her main subject in season o...

Ozzy Osbourne died in July. He was memorialized as the "Prince of Darkness" and was a key figure during the Satanic Panic of the 1980s. But our guest Jason P Woodbury points out that Osbourne's genius was in marrying heaven and hell- and if you listen closely, he's not as different from Christian rock as you might assume. 

Jason P Woodbury is an editor of Aquarium Drunkard and hosts their podcast, Transmissions. He also makes music as JPW.

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Larry Norman thought another world was possible. Christians would make daring, artistic rock music. Mainstream musicians would make earnestly explore their spirituality in popular songs. He started a record label and an artist management company to make this a reality. And though he could see glimpses of this world, it was fully realized. 

Gregory Alan Thornbury is our guest this week- in an interview recorded in 2022. He's Norman's biographer and an "erstwhile theologian" as he puts it. His 2018 book, Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?: Larry Norman and the Perils of Christian Rock is a...

Larry Norman is widely recognized as the first Christian rock star. Recording with mainstream studio musicians The Wrecking Crew and later sharing a label with The Velvet Underground, Norman began his career singing explicitly about the values of evangelical Christianity on mainstream releases that didn't exactly light up the charts. But when Christian music publishers licensed his albums to sell in bookstores, sales went through the roof and the Christian Contemporary Music market was born. 

Plus he wrote the song "The Rock That Doesn't Roll."

Gregory Alan Thornbury is our guest this week- in an i...

Nathan Evans Fox is a country music artist, but he has a deep background with Christian music. In his viral hit single "Hillbilly Hymn" he brings the biblical concept of jubilee into the rural gas station. 

Find more of Nathan's music here and look for his podcast "Yallidarity Social Club" soon. 

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Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off.

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, supp...

Derek Webb was part of a remarkable success story with Caedmon's Call in the late '90s. But the more success he witnessed, the less he could keep quiet. Now in his solo career he stands confidently alongside the marginalized, even attending the Dove Awards in a dress. 

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Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264.

If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app)

Or...

In season two of Shiny Happy People, the Amazon Prime Original docu-series turns its focus to Teen Mania Ministries, the organization that made Acquire The Fire stadium events. These events are described in the series as "youth group Coachella." But Christian music was just the tip of the iceberg with Teen Mania. 

To unpack the series, Andrew is joined by Krispin Mayfield, a fellow podcaster and licensed therapist who specializes in helping people with religious trauma. 

Learn more about Krispin at krispinmayfield.com and his current podcast project, Strongwilled, at Substack: strongwilled.substack.com

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