Off-Road Racer Podcast

40 Episodes
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By: JB15 Network

The Off-Road Racer Podcast covers the world of off-road racing including it's events, personalities, and history. Brought to you by OffRoadRacer.com

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Off-Road Racer Live - Josh the Auto Buyer - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Josh the Auto Buyer - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/05/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this edition, Matt Martelli and Bob Bower sit down with Josh Stabile, better known as Josh the Auto Buyer, who was responsible for bringing this entire group of builders, prerunners, racers, and off road personalities together at the Expo.

Josh talks about how the idea came together in just a matter of weeks, starting with a few phone calls and growing into an entire hall built around the people and vehicles he...


Off-Road Racer Live - Eric Conner of SoCal Suspension - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Eric Conner of SoCal Suspension - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/04/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this edition, Matt Martelli and Desert Dime sit down with Eric Conner of SoCal Suspension to talk about his unusual path into off road, starting with a career as a professional skateboarder before moving into cars, fabrication, prerunners, and eventually desert racing.

Eric talks about growing up around skateboarding in Southern California, skating professionally through his teens and early twenties, and how his father taught him to work on cars and build...


Off-Road Racer Live - Rob Lindsay of RJ Fabrication - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Rob Lindsay of RJ Fabrication - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/04/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this edition, Matt Martelli and Bob Bower sit down with Rob Lindsay of RJ Fab to talk about his path from working in a high school metal shop to building some of the most detailed and creative off road vehicles in the industry.

Rob talks about starting out building street and drag race cars, eventually turning fabrication into a full time business, and how a prerunner project for Tom Kirkmyer and Richard...


Off-Road Racer Live - Ruslan Yankilevich - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Ruslan Yankilevich - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/04/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this edition, Matt Martelli and Desert Dime sit down with Ruslan Yankilevich to talk about his progression through off road racing, from starting in short course and making a name for himself with stunts, to racing desert and becoming part of the Roar Tribe program.

Ruslan talks about racing the Mint 400 at just 11 years old, the challenges of trying to race without the budget or resources to properly prepare a...


Off-Road Racer Live - Blake Wilkey - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Blake Wilkey - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/04/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

Matt Martelli and Bob Bower sit down with Blake Wilkey to talk about his second season racing in the Pro UTV class, his progression from Class 11 into one of the most competitive fields in off road racing, and what it takes to run at the front as a privateer team. Blake talks about the pace of modern UTV racing, the importance of preparation, and the challenge of keeping up with factory backed teams...


Off-Road Racer Live - Glenn Harris - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Glenn Harris - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/04/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this episode, we sit down with legendary off-road racer and team leader Glenn Harris, a man whose career stretches back to the early days of stadium and desert off-road racing. Glenn started racing as a teenager, building his first desert buggy with his father before going on to compete at the highest levels of the sport. He became a major force in Mickey Thompson's Off-Road Championship Gran Prix, raced factory-backed Mazda trucks, and helped...


Off-Road Racer Live - Robby Woods & BJ Baldwin - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Robby Woods & BJ Baldwin - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/04/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this installment, Matt sits down with well known car builder Robby Woods. Robby shares his story, from a Moto racing career turned sideways, to selling scrap steel to build a short course program, racing with the best on a budget, and becoming a car builder. Robby share's his current ventures, including his upfitted TRX's and a new AWD Race Truck platform he plans on debuting soon.

BJ Baldwin joins half way through...


Off-Road Racer Live - Greg & Lake Adler - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Greg & Lake Adler - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/04/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this installment, Matt sits down with Greg and Lake Adler. Matt and Greg talk about Greg's recent purchase of the ORW company, the iconic off-road parts company that his Grandfather had started. The company has switched hands over the years, and has found itself back in the Adler's hands. The two talk about the shifts in the off-road industry, and how ORW is adapting. Matt, Greg, and Lake go on to talk about racing...


Off-Road Racer Live - Ryan Millen - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Ryan Millen - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/03/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this Installment, Matt and Jim sit down with Ryan Millen. Part of the legendary Millen family, son of Rod Millen, Ryan has racing baked into his DNA. With a lengthy personal history in many forms of racing, including stage rally and desert racing, Ryan is a certified veteran himself. Matt, Jim, and Ryan go into his racing history, and how that has progressed to today, racing with the legendary Herbst family. The crew also...


Off-Road Racer Live - BJ Baldwin - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - BJ Baldwin - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/03/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this installment, Matt Martelli and Jim Beaver sit down with the legendary BJ Baldwin. As someone who has been on the podcast multiple times, Matt, Jim, and BJ took the oppurtunity to catch up. The crew go into BJ's history in motorsports stunts, where he takes inspiration from, and what some of his favorite stunts were. They also talk about some changes they have seen in off-road culture, and how much the sponsorship landscape...


Off-Road Racer Live - Ryan Kibbe - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Ryan Kibbe - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/03/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this installment, Matt sits down with Ryan Kibbe, owner of Kibbetech, one of the most well known vehicle builders in our sphere. Matt and Ryan go into his history, how some small skills in repairing bikes for the neighborhood kids led his career into what it has become today. Matt and Kibbe talk about modern prerunner builds, and the things that Kibbe has built, and wants to build.


Off-Road Racer Live - "Jedi" Jack Mamelli - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - "Jedi" Jack Mamelli - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/03/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this installment, Matt sits down with "Jedi" Jack Mamelli, who's part of the new wave of racers that grew up racing in the Youth UTV classes. Jedi has been working his way up through the UTV classes over the last few years, and has recently been racing in the UTV Pro class. Jack and Matt go into what the process has been like, and what Jack's goals are in UTV racing.


Off-Road Racer Live - Paul Fisher, All American Sender - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Paul Fisher, All American Sender - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/03/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this installment, Matt and Desert Dime sit down with Paul Fisher, known as All American Sender, known for producing videos of him preforming stunts in his prerunner. The crew go into the history of freestyle and stunt-based motorsports, with the inception of the famous Gymkhana series, and Paul's take on the format, with his Flight School series on YouTube. Paul breaks down how he approaches his stunts, from location planning, to jump building and...


Off-Road Racer Live - Jerry Welchel - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Jerry Welchel - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/03/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this installment, Matt sits down with Jerry Welchel, a veteran in both desert and short-course racing. Currently, Jerry is racing with Alex Wacker, and are expecting the brand new Camburg AWD Unlimited Truck in the near future.


Off-Road Racer Live - Danny Thompson - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Danny Thompson - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/03/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

Matt catches up with Danny Thompson, who has been a guest on the show previously. Danny Thompson is son of the late great Mickey Thompson, who may be credited as the man who kickstarted off-road, and stadium, and short-course racing as sports. Now, Danny competes at the Bonneville Salt Flats, setting land speed records in a number of classes. Matt and Danny go into what Danny has been into since we last had him on...


Off-Road Racer Live - Kyle Craft - 2026 Off-Road Expo
Off-Road Racer Live - Kyle Craft - 2026 Off-Road Expo episode artwork
10/03/2026

Welcome to the first edition of Off-Road Racer Live. These recordings come from the 2026 Off-Road Expo, in the Josh the Auto Buyer booth.

In this episode, Matt sits down with Kyle Craft, one of the most well known co-drivers in the sport. Kyle currently co-drives for Alan Ampudia, one of the best Trophy Truck racers down in Baja. Matt and Kyle go into his career in off-road racing, from his own racing, to racing with some of the greats like James Dean and BJ Baldwin. The two then go into some of the minutia of co-driving, including how...


Episode 99: Cole Hardin
Episode 99: Cole Hardin episode artwork
#99
09/03/2026

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, Matt Martelli sits down with Cole Hardin, fresh off his overall win at the Vegas to Reno.
Cole talks about what it takes to race at the front of the field in some of the fastest desert races in the country, including the unique challenges of Vegas to Reno and how quickly things can go wrong when you are running 120 plus mph for miles at a time.
Matt and Cole also get into the differences between some of the major desert courses, from the high speed terrain of Nevada to...


Episode 98: Chris Forsberg
Episode 98: Chris Forsberg episode artwork
#98
07/09/2026

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, Matt Martelli sits down with Chris Forsberg, three time Formula Drift champion, Nissan driver, and one of the most recognizable names in modern motorsports.
While Chris built his career in drifting, his approach has always gone beyond one discipline. From building cars in his own garage to developing a professional racing program, Chris has been involved in every part of the process. That same mindset eventually led him into the desert, taking on a completely different challenge behind the wheel of an off road race truck.
Matt and Chris talk...


Episode 97: Justin "Bean" Smith
Episode 97: Justin "Bean" Smith episode artwork
#97
06/25/2026

n this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, Matt Martelli sits down with Justin Bean Smith, one of the most versatile drivers in off road racing today. Whether it's Trophy Truck Spec, Unlimited Truck, or jumping into someone else's program, Justin has built a reputation for being ready when the opportunity comes. Justin shares how his career has evolved from getting early opportunities behind the wheel to becoming one of the sport's most sought after fill in and development drivers. Along the way, he talks about racing for established teams, adapting to different vehicles, and earning the trust of owners...


Episode 96: Steve Barlow
Episode 96: Steve Barlow episode artwork
#96
06/11/2026

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, Matt Martelli sits down with Steve Barlow, an influential figure in off road racing and a key player in the growth of short course racing during its most successful era. Over the course of his career, Steve has worn just about every hat imaginable. Racer, team owner, promoter, executive, and industry leader. From his early days in off road racing to helping build some of the sport's most recognizable teams and series, Steve has had a front row seat to decades of change across the industry. Matt and Steve dive into the...


Episode 95: Andy McMillin
Episode 95: Andy McMillin episode artwork
#95
05/28/2026

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, Matt Martelli sits down with Andy McMillin, one of the most accomplished drivers of the modern desert racing era. Coming from one of the sport’s most well known families, Andy grew up around off road racing from the beginning, but building his own career meant living up to a name that already carried major expectations. Over the years, he has done exactly that, becoming one of the most consistent and technically skilled drivers in Trophy Truck competition. Matt and Andy get into the evolution of modern desert racing, how the level of...


Episode 94: Corbin Leaverton
Episode 94: Corbin Leaverton episode artwork
#94
05/14/2026

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, Matt Martelli sits down with Corbin Leaverton, one of the younger drivers making his way through the off road world and building experience across multiple forms of racing. Corbin talks about growing up around the sport, developing as a driver, and the process of learning how to compete at a higher level as the competition keeps getting deeper. From desert racing to short course influences, he shares how different disciplines shape the way he approaches driving and racecraft. Matt and Corbin also get into the modern side of off road racing. The...


Episode 93: Steve Olliges
Episode 93: Steve Olliges episode artwork
#93
04/30/2026

This week on the Off-Road Racer Podcast, we sit down with Steve Olliges—longtime racer, Ford off-road program staple, and someone who’s been around the sport through multiple eras. Steve’s career spans everything from Stock Production Full and Class 8 to competing at the highest level in Unlimited Truck. He’s seen the sport evolve firsthand—different vehicles, different rules, and a completely different level of competition than when he first got started. We get into those transitions—what it was like coming up through the more production-based classes, how things changed as trucks got faster and more specialized, and what it...


Episode 92: Josh Daniel
Episode 92: Josh Daniel episode artwork
#92
04/16/2026

This week on the Off-Road Racer Podcast, we sit down with Josh Daniel—one of the guys who’s built a reputation on being able to get in just about anything and be competitive. Josh has carved out his place in the sport driving for different teams, adapting to different cars, and making the most of every opportunity he gets. It’s a different path than most—less about owning the program, more about proving you can show up, figure it out quickly, and deliver results. We get into what that actually looks like—limited seat time, jumping between platforms, and learni...


Episode 91: Jamie Campbell
Episode 91: Jamie Campbell episode artwork
#91
04/02/2026

Matt Martelli sits down with Jamie Campbell—fabricator, racer, and the guy behind Raceco USA. From coming up in the Penhall shop days to building dozens of Class 1 cars, Jamie’s path runs through some of the best eras of off-road racing. He gets into working with legends, starting his own program, and what it actually takes to build cars at that level. They also dive into Dakar Rally—from wrenching on Robbie Gordon’s program to racing a hydrogen-powered vehicle in the Mission 1000 class. Plenty in here on fabrication, racing different platforms, and how the sport has evolved—from open wheel...


Episode 90: Bryan Folks
Episode 90: Bryan Folks episode artwork
#90
01/29/2026

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, Matt Martelli sits down with Bryan Folks, one of the most influential figures behind the scenes in modern off-road racing. From his early involvement in desert racing to helping shape major race organizations, Bryan shares a candid look at how off-road events are actually built, operated, and sustained. Bryan breaks down the realities of running large-scale races, including course design, permitting, safety, logistics, and the constant balance between racer expectations and land-use restrictions. He discusses the evolution of desert racing formats, why certain decisions are misunderstood from the outside, and how promoters...


Episode 89: Justin Von Metal
Episode 89: Justin Von Metal episode artwork
#89
12/18/2025

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, Matt Martelli sits down with Justin Von Metal — racer, builder, and one of the most outspoken minds in modern UTV racing. From his roots in motocross and factory race teams to building championship-winning Pro Stock UTV programs, Justin breaks down what it actually takes to win at the highest level without unlimited budgets. The conversation dives deep into race course design, class structure, affordability, and the realities of racing rough events like the Mint 400, Barstow, Parker, Laughlin, and Vegas to Reno. Justin explains why preparation, testing, and discipline matter more than hype pa...


Episode 88: Jim Beaver
Episode 88: Jim Beaver episode artwork
#88
12/04/2025

In this episode, Jim Beaver sits down with Matt Martelli for a deep dive into one of the most unconventional careers in modern motorsports. From growing up in Parker surrounded by legends, to grinding his way into trophy trucks, to accidentally becoming one of off-road’s most influential broadcasters and marketers, Jim’s story is a masterclass in hustle, timing, and staying connected to the culture that raised you. Jim talks about building his first trucks from scratch, learning the media game before anyone else was paying attention, launching his own radio show out of thin air, and turning it into...


Episode 87: Kevin McGillivray
Episode 87: Kevin McGillivray episode artwork
11/20/2025

This week on the Off-Road Racer Podcast, we sit down with one of the true originals of our sport: Kevin McGillivray. Kevin might not be the loudest guy in the room or the one chasing cameras, but he’s been shaping off-road racing for nearly five decades—quietly, consistently, and with an authenticity you don’t often see anymore. From growing up exploring the San Bernardino mountains, to hand-fabricating dune buggies, to racing and winning in Class 10, ProTruck, and Trophy Truck, Kevin’s life is the definition of earned experience. But what really stands out is the way his path was shap...


Episode 86: Rick Geiser
Episode 86: Rick Geiser episode artwork
#86
11/06/2025

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, Matt Martelli sits down with one of the most influential builders in off-road racing history — Rick Geiser, co-founder of Geiser Bros Design and Development. From humble beginnings wrenching in his backyard to producing nearly 100 of the most dominant Trophy Trucks ever built, Rick shares the full story of how the Geiser name became synonymous with off-road racing excellence. Rick and Matt dive deep into the origins of the Geiser platform, how they changed the sport by making top-level trucks accessible to privateers, and the hands-on innovation that fueled decades of race wins. Th...


Episode 85: Kyle Jergensen
Episode 85: Kyle Jergensen episode artwork
#85
10/09/2025

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, Matt Martelli sits down with one of the fastest drivers in desert racing — Kyle Jergensen. From humble beginnings wrenching and learning his craft, to now piloting some of the most advanced trucks in the sport with Camburg Racing’s Kinetik program, Kyle has carved out a name for himself as one of the most precise and composed drivers in the game. Matt and Kyle dig into the details of what makes modern race trucks so capable — from the mid-fuel design of the Kinetik truck to how vehicle balance and setup affect performance at hig...


Episode 84: Chris Blais
Episode 84: Chris Blais episode artwork
#84
09/25/2025

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, Matt Martelli sits down with Chris Blais, one of the most accomplished motorcycle racers to come out of the desert. Before making the jump into UTVs, Chris was among the best moto racers in the world, competing against the toughest riders on the planet and even landing on the podium at the legendary Dakar Rally.

That same intensity and focus have carried him into the UTV world, where Chris has built a reputation not just as a talented driver, but also as a builder who understands how to maximize performance...


Episode 83: Jason Coleman
Episode 83: Jason Coleman episode artwork
#83
09/11/2025

Before Jason Coleman was behind the wheel, he was 'the shop kid' at Terrible Herbst — sweeping floors, cleaning CVs, and learning the sport from the ground up.

This is a recurring story that comes up frequently on the show. We always talk about the importance of “sweeping the floor.” It’s a humble start, but it’s how countless racers and industry leaders got their foot in the door. That work builds respect, discipline, and opportunity — Jason’s story proves it.

Matt and Jason also touch on the legendary Herbst Truggy and AWD truck, machines that pushed the bou...


Episode 82: Mike 'Otto' Deutsch
Episode 82: Mike 'Otto' Deutsch episode artwork
#82
08/28/2025

This week we sit down with Mike “Otto” Deutsch, co-founder of Biltwell, a brand that has become a cornerstone of motorcycle culture. These days, Otto is best known for helping bring people together—through events like the Biltwell 100 and countless other moto gatherings that celebrate the spirit of two wheels and the garage-built community.

In this episode, Otto and Matt dive into everything from the early days of Biltwell to the evolution of grassroots racing, the crossover between moto and off-road, and the importance of keeping the culture authentic. They talk about the lessons learned from building a lifest...


Episode 81: Dan Roush
Episode 81: Dan Roush episode artwork
#81
08/14/2025

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, we sit down with Dan Roush — a racer with a story unlike any we’ve heard before. Dan isn’t a household name in the off-road world, but his life was forever changed in an instant during a brutal crash in Baja. In the moments after the impact, Dan made the conscious choice to keep breathing, fight through the pain, and survive. From the details of that day to the long road of recovery, Dan shares his journey with honesty and perspective. We talk about how his crash reshaped his outlook on life...


Episode 80: David Clay
Episode 80: David Clay episode artwork
#80
07/31/2025

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, I sit down with David Clay, founder of RacingTrax, the GPS tracking and timing system used by UNLTD and many other off-road racing series. We dive into how a series of frustrating experiences racing in Baja led David to develop one of the most important innovations in modern desert racing. What started as a tool to keep track of race vehicles has evolved into a system that increases safety, improves race management, and provides critical real-time data to teams, officials, and fans alike. We talk about how the technology works, what it...


Episode 79: Dave Mason Jr.
Episode 79: Dave Mason Jr. episode artwork
#79
07/17/2025

On this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, we sit down with rising off-road racer Dave Mason Jr., one of the most versatile drivers in the sport today. From a foundation in karting and open-wheel, to years competing in Pro Buggy, Dave brings a unique perspective and driving style to desert racing — one that blends technical precision with raw speed. We get into his transition into the Unlimited Truck class, the philosophy behind his race program, and how he’s built a competitive team by starting with proven equipment and refining it over time. Dave also shares how his family’s stru...


Episode 78: Bryan Harrold
Episode 78: Bryan Harrold episode artwork
#78
07/03/2025

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, I sit down with Bryan Harrold, Motorsports Program Manager at Fox Factory. From growing up in the pits of Plaster City to helping guide one of the most influential brands in off-road racing, Bryan’s path has been built on creativity, consistency, and a deep understanding of the culture. We dig into Bryan’s early days photographing desert races, his creative path, and how mentors like John Marking helped guide him into his current role at Fox — where he now bridges the gap between engineering, marketing, and racing culture. Bryan also talks about...


Episode 77: Robert Blanton
Episode 77: Robert Blanton episode artwork
#73
06/19/2025

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, we sit down with Robert Blanton, a retired Marine, Silver Star recipient, and founder of Warfighter Made — a nonprofit dedicated to helping combat-wounded veterans through off-road racing, fabrication, and community. Blanton takes us through the battles that came after the war — the struggle to adjust, the weight of post-traumatic stress, and the moment he nearly gave up. We talk about how wrenching on a Camaro in his garage became the first step in his recovery, and how Warfighter Made has since given that same opportunity to hundreds of other veterans. This is a co...


Episode 76: Trey Gibbs
Episode 76: Trey Gibbs episode artwork
#76
06/05/2025

In this episode of the Off-Road Racer Podcast, we sit down with Trey Gibbs — one of the most exciting young drivers in off-road right now. Still deep in the short course world and stepping confidently into desert racing, Trey represents the next generation of racers who are fast, focused, and built for both sides of the sport. We talk about how it started, what he’s learning, and where he’s headed — from early wins to big lessons and everything in between. Whether it’s behind the wheel or behind the camera, Trey’s building something real. This one’s about potentia...