Risk! Engineers Talk Governance

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss New Zealand's Health and Safety at Work Amendment Bill, which received Royal Assent on 9 July and commences 1 April 2027. 

They unpack the shift towards a focus on critical risks for small business and an expanded role for approved codes of practice, and question whether this makes the regime more prescriptive than the "reasonably practicable" standard intended. The conversation moves to a Wellington waterfront fatality case and the accountability questions it raises for local councils and t...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and (Risk Engineer Achievement Award winner!) Gaye Francis discuss Risk, Uncertainty, and Hallucinations. 

Prompted by a recent course on AI and probability, Richards exaplins how large language models actually work as giant inference engines predicting the "most likely" next word, and why that's fundamentally different from genuine risk assessment. 

They explore why AI can widen the number of scenarios you can process without ever solving the harder problem of criticality — the rare, high-consequence events that haven't happ...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss Proactive vs Reactive Due Diligence - what does R2A actually do?

In their chat they unpack why timing changes everything and that proactive work happens before problems occur, while reactive work (like expert witness testimony) occurs after something's already gone wrong, and by then it's often too late to fix cheaply. 

Drawing on real examples, they explain why early engagement is cheaper, less adversarial, and allows genuine design fixes happen while t...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss how Elimination Has Its Own Hierarchy Of Control.

They unpack how the traditional hierarchy of controls (elimination, substitution, isolation, engineering, admin, PPE) collapses under WHS legislation into eliminate–prevent–mitigate, and why the elimination step can't be skipped until it's genuinely tested and ruled out. Using real examples, from rockfalls above a Sydney rail line to level crossings, they show that "eliminate" usually means choosing between stopping one activity, stopping another, or re-engineering the inte...

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In this first episode of Season 8, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis look at "criticality and control", starting with the pink elephant problem: Why organisations that successfully prevent bad outcomes often end up defunding the very risk functions responsible for that success. 

During their chat, they unpack the Port of Auckland conviction and what it reveals about the gap between Australian and New Zealand WHS enforcement, a local government case study on engineering versus insurance priorities, and why short-term commercial thinking clashes with the long timeframes in real risk m...

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In this season finale of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis reflect on Season 7's central theme of SFAIRP and the growing divide between moral imperative of work health and safety legislation and the commercial pressures organisations face in practice.

After their recap of topics covered, the conversation focuses on AI's growing role in decision, using marine pilotage as their example. Richard outlines ways AI could be applied, such as AI as the pilot, with crew simply responding to its instructions; a smarter...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss the mathematics behind risk modelling and why relying on heat maps for decision-making can have limitations.

Richard and Gaye explore the concept of the "ideal" hazard risk curve, unpacking why every hazard carries its own unique risk profile rather than a neat line of constant risk. Drawing on Heinrich's accident triangle and the hyperbolic relationship between consequence and likelihood, Richard walks through the calculus of integrating under a risk curve, and why simply "spotting...

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In the second of two episodes of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance on How Information Sharing has Changed, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss how the Public Sphere has evolved and what it ultimately means for SFAIRP.

Richard starts the chat outlining the work of German philosopher Jürgen Habermas, tracing the journey of public discourse from coffee houses through to commercially-driven newspapers and media moguls, to today's podcast landscape. 

They discuss why they believe high-quality, discussion-based podcasts seem to be rising above the noise, how real-time ex...

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In this first of two episodes of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis explore how the SFAIRP principle (So Far As Is Reasonably Practicable) applies to managing internet risk.

Richard explains R2A's journey with data security, from backing up to CDs and running an in-house server, to shifting to cloud hosting during Melbourne's COVID lockdowns, and ultimately landing on an offline-first approach that keeps them and sensitive client data off the internet as much as possible.

Richard and Gaye discuss the growing...

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In this episode of Risk!Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis explore organisational Cunning versus Smart and why it matters deeply for health, safety, and governance.

Richard draws on decades of observing large organisations and argues that the people who rise to the top aren't always the most competent, they're often the most cunning. But cunning alone isn't enough. The real sweet spot, what Richard calls wisdom, is the rare combination of intellectual smarts, real-world experience, and strategic savvy.

The conversation turns to boards...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis explore the use of ignorance in health and safety decisions and how it’s being used to not make decisions and not deliver the best safety outcomes for organisations.

Richard and Gaye examine the growing trend of shorter board tenures and how this lack of long-term intellectual property can affect diligent decisions, especially when directors lack deep familiarity with the technical hazards their organisations face. They also discuss how decision-makers often surround themselves with people wh...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss Delaying Decisions to avoid SFAIRP (So Far As Is Reasonably Practicable).

Their conversation covers:

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In this episode, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss New Zealand's Health and Safety at Work Amendment Bill and explore why New Zealand is leading the in workplace health and safety.

They break down the key changes in the amendment, including a sharper focus on critical risk and what this means for both large organisations and small PCBUs. 

The conversation touches on the real-world prosecutions that appear to have motivated the reform, including the White Island volcanic eruption and the conviction of the former CEO of t...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss Resilient Infrastructure, Risk & Adaptation Strategies.

Following their attendance at the recent forum hosted by Engineers Australia's Risk Engineering Society and the Institute of Strategic Risk Management they unpack the big questions it raised about resilient infrastructure.

From Victorian bushfires to the Dreamworld tragedy, to Finland's invasion-proof subways, they explore what resilience really means in practice; who defines it, who's responsible for it, and why "future proofing" is often considered optional.

...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis using AI for Risk Management & Governance Decisions.

Richard begins with a deep-dive into how large language models work, and where they fall short. He explains why AI systems are sophisticated inference engines rather than true reasoning machines, and why that distinction matters enormously for high-stakes decision-making and risk management.

The conversation covers the parallels between AI and Monte Carlo simulation (great for likely scenarios, unreliable for rare critical events), the growing wave of...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss this season’s theme of SFAIRP: Moral Imperative versus Commercial Reality and that SFAIRP is hard. 

They discuss the tension between the legal and moral weight of “so far as is reasonably practicable” and the commercial pressures organisations face every day, including:

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis wrap up Season 6 and the theme of SFAIRP complexities.

Key season highlights they revisit:

Watch out for 2026 for Season 7.

For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss the two types of Regulators.

They outline two fundamentally different regulatory philosophies: regulators who view prosecutions as a measure of success versus those who see them as a measure of failure.

The discussion examines how the "so far as is reasonably practicable" (SFAIRP) framework has shifted the burden of proof, making it harder for some regulators to secure convictions and created new challenges for organisations trying to demonstrate compliance. 

Richard a...

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In this special episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss psychosocial hazards in the workplace and the newly introduced Victorian Occupational Health and Safety (Psychosocial Health) Regulations 2025, which came into effect on 1 December.

They explain that the new regulations largely re-states existing Occupational Health and Safety legislation requirements to identify, eliminate, and reduce such hazards as far as reasonably practicable. They also note that psychosocial hazards can manifest in various ways, such as aggression, bullying, exposure to traumatic events, and high-demand jobs. However...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis break down the concept of SFAIRP "So Far As Is Reasonably Practicable" into three key parts: "So Far", "As Is", and "Reasonably Practicable".

This was one of their key take-aways from their recent Live Forum where lawyer Joseph Coleiro articulated the following:

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss Formal Safety Assessments. 

Key highlights include:

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis revisit the topic of Safety Culture.

They review the work of Professor Patrick Hudson, who identified five levels of safety culture, from pathological (who cares as long as we're not caught) to generative (safety is how we do business around here).

Richard and Gaye observe that many organisations tend to be more reactive, focusing on implementing controls after incidents occur, rather than striving for a generative safety culture. They note that the transition...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss Could vs Should in Workplace Safety. (Thanks Nick for your email, case reference and questions.)

They explore the critical distinction between what "could" have been done versus what "should" have been done in workplace safety, sparked by the SKM Services case against Magistrates Courts of Victoria, and discuss how experts often use hindsight to determine what could have prevented an incident, whereas courts must assess what was reasonably practicable with the knowledge available at...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss the complications of Safety Legislation & Planning Law.  

Drawing on their extensive experience across multiple Australian jurisdictions—including Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland, and federal government projects—Richard and Gaye discuss the challenges engineers and designers face when navigating competing legislative requirements. They examine why Work Health and Safety (WHS) legislation doesn't always take precedence in planning decisions, despite common assumptions, and how this creates significant complications for professionals trying to ensure safe outcomes.

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss Safe Work Australia's review of the model Work Health and Safety (WHS) Act & Regulations, and R2A’s submission response.  

Key points include:

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis answer a listener’s question on the Pressures of Rail Safety National Law and the SFAIRP Approach.

They explain how WHS/OHS legislation takes precedence over the Rail Safety National Law, clarify the "no double jeopardy" principle, and discuss how Australia's federal system led to harmonised rail safety legislation.

Their discussion also covers:

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In this first episode of Season 6 of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss the pressures and complexities different stakeholders are having with SFAIRP

They follow on from the theme of Season 5, “Difficult Conversations Engineers Need to Have”, how it generated discussions and comments, and determined holding an in person event with speakers from different perspectives and professional backgrounds - a lawyer, an architect, and two engineer. 

Richard and Gaye highlight the need for a cooperative and collaborative approach among stakeholders, rather than a com...

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In this special episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis preview their upcoming live forum event on "Preventing Criminal Manslaughter - Understanding & Implementing SFAIRP (So Far As Reasonably Practicable)". 

The event will feature presentations from a lawyer, Joseph Coleiro, and an architect, Dr. Frank Stoks, along with the hosts Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis, with the focus on exploring the legal obligations and practical challenges around the concept of SFAIRP, which is a key requirement in health and safety legislation.

Topics to b...

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In this final episode of Season 5, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis conclude their theme of difficult conversations engineers need to have as well as discuss Engineering for Communities. 

They explore how engineering should focus on improving rather than maintaining the status quo, and the concerning trend of engineers being sidelined in critical decision-making processes.

The discussion includes:

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In this episode of "Risk! Engineers Talk Governance," due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis revisit the fundamentals of engineering due diligence in response to listener feedback about confusion between risk, assurance and diligence.

The discussion covers how R2A became specialised in due diligence engineering through their expert witness work, where they learned that due diligence serves as a defense against negligence with two key components: having reasonable control in place and taking all reasonable steps to protect against foreseeable harm.

Richard explains their decision to move...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis tackle the growing problem of organisational silos and their impact on due diligence and explore how siloed thinking undermines efforts across various domains—from safety, projects and regulatory compliance.

Drawing from decades of industry experience, Richard traces the evolution of risk engineering. They then discuss the need for integrating expertise across the entire organisation to achieve genuinely diligent solutions that satisfy all stakeholders.

Through real-world examples including waterfront safety designs in New Zealand an...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss why effective due diligence arguments need to be relevant, reasoned, and concise. 

They share their frustrations with overly complex safety documentation that fails to deliver clear, defensible arguments, and explain why safety cases should be brief yet comprehensive enough to stand up to legal scrutiny. 

Drawing from their extensive experience as expert witnesses and consultants, they offer practical advice on creating effective safety documentation that not only satisfies the courts and makes se...

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In this episode, of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis revisit the distinction between SFAIRP (So Far As Is Reasonably Practicable) and Target Levels of Risk and Safety.  

They explain how target levels of risk continue to be problematic in engineering despite being legally unsupportable under WHS/OHS legislation and share examples of regulators and engineers still using outdated approaches and discuss why this confusion persists, pointing to issues with Standards and educational institutions that continue teaching these methods.

They clarify that SFAIRP a...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineering experts Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss why Standards are not the solution.  

They explore why following Standards can be problematic, outlining key issues: 

1.     Using Standards out of context;

2.     There’s no explanation for rationales;

3.     They don’t cover all things; and

4.     They are often lagging indicators.

They share a number of examples within SIL, AS1940 and AS61508 that demonstrate the issues if you do blindly follow the Standard. 

The episode concl...

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In this episode of "Risk! Engineers Talk Governance," due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss Insurance Criteria and its history and modern relevance, particularly focusing on the Highly Protected Risk (HPR) engineering process.

Richard shares his experience training with Factory Mutual in the US and explains how the HPR approach originated in the 1840s with Zacharia Allen, a cotton mill owner who re-engineered his facility to minimise fire risks. When his insurance company refused to offer discounts for these improvements, Allen created a mutual pool with other safety-conscious factory...

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss: How to prevent catastrophic project blowouts and the project governance framework they use.

They discuss the three key considerations when undertaking project due diligence and preventing catastrophic project blowouts as:

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis this season’s theme of "Difficult Conversations Engineers Need to Have About Risk". 

Key discussion points include:

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In this first episode of Season 5 of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis provide an overview of their new booklet "Risk Management and Negligence - Due Diligence Essentials for Engineers". 

They discuss the importance of engineers to understand their responsibilities around risk management and due diligence, and the need to communicate this effectively to senior decision-makers. 

The booklet covers:

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In the final episode of Season 4 of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis wrap up the key theme of the season of due diligence as a governance process. They also provide another industry example in Dam Safety, and discuss the relevance of WHS/OHS legislation and the state of prosecutions.

Key take-aways include:

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In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss due diligence for bushfires.

Richard has been involved in advising on bushfire risk and controls since Ash Wednesday in 1984, while both Richard and Gaye as R2A were involved with bushfire assessments post Black Saturday in 2009.  

Their discussion highlights: