We Built This Brand

40 Episodes
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By: HumblePod

We Built This Brand explores the origins, evolution, and impact of brands through conversations with entrepreneurs, CEOs, and marketing experts. Hosted by Chris Hill, the podcast offers insights into brand development, storytelling, and strategies for growth. Each episode provides actionable takeaways, highlighting challenges, lessons learned, and diverse career paths. With a focus on authenticity and reputation, it’s a valuable resource for anyone passionate about branding and business.

Building a Brand After Rock Bottom: Andrew Parrott on Recovery, Business, and Authentic Marketing
#65
04/23/2026

Andrew Parrott, founder of Logic Marketing and partner at Brainchild Creative, shares a raw and powerful story of addiction, recovery, and redemption, and how those experiences shaped his approach to business and branding. From homelessness and a near-fatal past to building a multi-faceted marketing and experiential agency, Andrew dives into authenticity, risk-taking, and why your scars might be your greatest asset. This episode is a deep, honest look at what it really means to build something that matters.


Show Highlights:
(00:00) Experience Over Guesswork
(01:27) From Tacoma to Tennessee
(04:13) Addiction and Recovery
(10:20) Turning Scars...


From Logo to Lifestyle: Rebuilding the Soul of La-Z-Boy, with Diana Quenomoen
#64
04/08/2026

What does it take to reinvent a 100-year-old brand? In this episode or We Built This Brand, Diana “DQ” Quinmoen, Head of Design at  Colle McVoy, shares how her team helped La-Z-Boy rediscover its soul and transform from a furniture brand into a full sensory experience. From brand scent and store experience to AI-powered activations and the “ah-place” philosophy, this conversation explores how modern brands must think beyond campaigns and build systems that connect emotionally at every touchpoint.

Show Highlights:
(01:17) DQ Origin Story

(05:18) Trust and La-Z-Boy Kickoff

(09:00) Finding the Ah Place

(18:37...


From Budweiser Frogs to the Ability Machine: How Creativity Unlocks Hidden Talent with Tom Woodard
#63
03/11/2026

Tom Woodard spent decades shaping iconic advertising, from voicing the famous Budweiser frogs to producing national jingles for brands like Coca-Cola and McDonald’s. Now he’s channeling that creative experience into something bigger: The Ability Machine, a marketing initiative that intentionally collaborates with creatives with disabilities.

In this episode of We Built This Brand, Tom shares his journey through the golden era of advertising, the story behind one of the most memorable Super Bowl campaigns ever, and how giving people a seat at the creative table can unlock incredible talent, confidence, and community.



From Side Hustle to Strategy with Becky Owen
#62
01/21/2026

What does it really take to turn creator passion into a sustainable business? In this episode of We Built this Brand, Becky Owen breaks down the reality behind the creator economy, from pricing your worth and avoiding burnout to why AI isn’t a strategy (and never should be). We explore how creators can build long-term influence without launching a brand, the danger of “AI-for-AI’s-sake,” and why nostalgia, instinct, and human creativity still matter more than ever. A must-listen for creators, marketers, and brand builders navigating what’s next.

Show Highlights: 

(00:32) Meet Becky Owen: Career High...


Marketing With Boundaries: Social Media, Mental Health & Authenticity with Halee Sprinkle
#61
01/07/2026

Join Chris as he sits down with Halee Sprinkle, founder of Check Yourself Marketing, to explore the human side of social media. From the very origins of “social media” to the challenges of maintaining mental health in a digital world, Halee shares hard-earned insights on entrepreneurship, authenticity, AI, and community-driven marketing strategies that actually deliver results. Whether you’re a small business owner or a seasoned marketing professional, this conversation will leave you inspired, informed, and ready to show up authentically online.

Show Highlights

(02:09) Haley's Journey: From Army Nurse to Marketing Professional

(03:26) The Birth...


The Stories That Shaped Our Year
#60
12/18/2025

As we close out the year, We Built This Brand takes a step back to reflect on the conversations that defined it.

This special year-end recap revisits the moments, ideas, and voices that shaped our understanding of what it really takes to build something meaningful. From honest conversations about creativity, ambition, and identity to stories of culture, community, and brands that endure, this episode highlights the human side of brand building.

Across these conversations, one theme kept surfacing: joy. Not the polished, performative kind, but the kind that fuels the work, carries us through uncertainty...


From Likes to Loyalty: Vince Wang on the Future of Influencer Marketing for Restaurants
#59
11/12/2025

In this episode of We Built This Brand,  Chris chats with Vince Wang, Chief Marketing Officer at Mustard Love, the platform helping restaurants connect with local influencers and track real ROI.

Vince shares how data-driven marketing and startup experience shaped his approach to influencer campaigns that actually drive business results. A must-listen for marketers, restaurant owners, and creators looking to turn influence into measurable impact.

Show Highlights:
(00:21) Meet Vince Wang

(01:25) Vince's Journey into Marketing

(02:09) First Role and Performance Marketing

(03:51) Joining Mustard Love

(04:28) The Evolution of Mustard L...


LA Trip Ep. 8 Leading with Authenticity: Building Brands That Shape Culture
#58
10/30/2025

We’re wrapping up our LA interview series with a bang. Thai Randolph and Katie Soo join Chris Hill and Adhrucia Apana to talk brand leadership, creative growth, and what it really takes to stay ahead in a fast-changing world.

Show Highlights:
(00:00) Introduction and Guest Welcome

(00:47)Meet the Guests: Katie Sue and Ty Randolph

(01:19) Ty Randolph's Career Journey

(02:55) Katie Sue's Career Highlights

(07:15) Brand Building Insights from Katie Sue

(09:06) Advice for Aspiring Brand Builders

(14:07) Challenges in Brand Building

(22:12) Navigating Community Feedback

(27:46) Fa...


LA Trip Ep. 7 Inside Curiosity Entertainment with Adhrucia Apana & Charles Allen
#57
10/28/2025

Host Chris Hill talks with Adhrucia Apana and Charles Allen, co-founders of Curiosity Entertainment and Storyteller Publishing, about building brands through authentic storytelling. They explore why story is still king, how authenticity drives community, and what it takes to grow a creative brand in the age of AI.

Listen now to discover how they’re putting artists first and reshaping the future of storytelling.

Show Highlights:
(00:00) Introduction and Guest Welcome

(01:05) Arusha's Journey into Film and TV

(02:14) The Birth of Curiosity Entertainment

(03:21) Understanding the Business of Storytelling

(05:01) Ch...


LA Trip Ep. 6: Ted Schilowitz Breaks Down the Tech Transforming Entertainment
#56
10/23/2025

Join Chris Hill and Adhrucia as they sit down with Ted Schilowitz, a 40-year entertainment veteran who’s shaped the evolution of digital cinema, immersive experiences, and AI-driven storytelling. From his early days producing children’s TV in Florida to pioneering desktop video with Apple, co-founding Red Digital Cinema, and advising major studios on the future of entertainment, Ted shares his insights on technology, creativity, and the democratization of filmmaking.


Show Highlights:
(00:00) Introduction and Guest Welcome

(00:40) Ted's Early Career in Entertainment

(01:48) Transition to Technology and Startups

(02:23) Involvement with Apple and...


LA Trip Ep. 5: Disrupting Hollywood With Stacy Spikes on MoviePass
#55
10/21/2025

Chris Hill and Adhrucia Apana sit down with Stacy Spikes, co-founder and CEO of MoviePass, to talk about disrupting Hollywood, rebuilding an iconic brand, and the launch of MoviePass’ new fantasy sports league for moviegoers. Stacy shares lessons from his incredible founder journey, what it takes to innovate in an industry resistant to change, how to turn setbacks into breakthroughs, and why building a lasting brand means creating a culture around an activity.


Show Highlights:
(00:00) Introduction to Stacey Spikes

(00:38) Early Life and Background

(02:17) Career Beginnings

(03:21) Major Achievements

(04:38) Ch...


LA Trip Ep. 4: Resilience, Storytelling & the Art of Reinvention with Lesley Paterson
#54
10/16/2025

World champion triathlete turned Oscar-winning filmmaker Lesley Paterson joins Chris Hill and Adhrucia  to talk about building Brave Art Entertainment, the power of resilience, and how great stories are born from grit. From All Quiet on the Western Front to new global projects with Idris Elba, Lesley shares what it takes to turn creative conviction into a brand that lasts, both on the course and on the screen.

Show Highlights:
(00:00) Introduction and Host Welcome

(00:35) Guest Introduction: Lesley Patterson

(01:00) Lesley's Triathlon Journey

(02:21) Rugby and Building Resilience

(03:41) Founding Brave Art E...


LA Trip Ep. 3: Conscious Leadership & Human Connection with Gwynn Simpson
#53
10/14/2025

On this episode of We Built This Brand, Chris Hill sits down with Gwen Simpson of Phoenix Rising Consultants. Gwen shares her unique approach to human capital development, blending intuition, positive psychology, and conscious leadership to help individuals and businesses thrive. From startups to established companies, discover how human connection, mindfulness, and purpose-driven strategy can transform your brand and your life.


Show Highlights: 

(00:00) Introduction and Host Welcome

(00:28) Guest Introduction: Gwen Simpson

(01:20) Gwen's Background and Beliefs

(03:07) Consulting and Human Capital Development

(04:57) Challenges of Modern Technology

(07:15) I...


LA Trip Ep. 2: Building a Media Brand with AI and Innovation featuring C. Craig Patterson
#52
10/10/2025

In this episode of We Built This Brand, host Chris Hill and co-host Adhrucia Apana sit down with filmmaker and entrepreneur C. Craig Patterson, founder of Everyday Mischief, to explore the intersection of AI, filmmaking, and media innovation. Discover how cutting-edge tools like virtual production stages and clean AI models are transforming the creative process, from concept to screen.

Whether you’re a filmmaker, content creator, or tech enthusiast, this conversation offers insight into building a powerful media brand, using artificial intelligence in film, and staying ahead of the curve in today’s fast-changing entertainment industry.


LA Trip Ep. 1: Troy Palmquist on Authenticity and the Future of Real Estate
#51
10/08/2025

In this episode of We Built This Brand, Chris Hill and co-host Adhrucia Apana sit down in Los Angeles with realtor, author, and speaker Troy Palmquist.

Troy shares his 23-year journey in real estate, from accidentally landing his first job at 20 to building multiple brokerages and helping shape the future of real estate tech. After a life-changing cancer diagnosis, Troy found new purpose in helping others grow their businesses with authenticity and intention.

Show Highlights: 
(00:00) Introduction and Welcome

(01:08) Troy Palmquist's Journey into Real Estate

(02:58) Overcoming Challenges and Shifting Focus


How Iconic Campaigns Shape Culture with James Bray
#50
08/27/2025

Join Chris as he sits down with James, Executive Creative Director at Arnold, to explore the art of building unforgettable brands. Inspired at 14 by a single Nike ad, James went on to shape work at legendary agencies like DDB, Fallon, and Goodby Silverstein. In this episode, he shares the philosophy behind Arnold’s bold “Brilliantly Boring” campaign for PNC Bank, why the riskiest move a brand can make is being forgettable, and the lessons he’s learned from leading and mentoring creative teams across some of the industry’s most iconic accounts.


Show Highlights:

(1:38) James' Cre...


Beyond the Buzzword of Storytelling with Greg Logan
#49
08/14/2025

On this episode we sit down with Greg Logan, an award-winning creative director turned reality TV creator, to explore why so many brands talk about “storytelling” but rarely know how to do it. From his early days at Leo Burnett to founding Narrativity, Greg reveals how he fuses Hollywood’s proven storytelling formulas with brand strategy to transform businesses into loved brands. Packed with insider anecdotes, practical frameworks, and eye-opening case studies, this episode will change how you think about branding and the stories you tell.


Show Highlights:
(2:27) Greg's Journey from Acting to Advertising
(4:19) From R...


How Life’s Setbacks Built a Better Entrepreneur with Joshua Kopac
#48
07/30/2025

In this episode of We Built This Brand, Joshua Kopac shares his unique journey, starting with being expelled from high school at 13 for hacking and building a million-dollar business by 16. After a life-changing car accident, he shifted his mindset and approach. Now the founder of Be Kept Up, a digital marketing agency focused on affiliate marketing, Joshua talks about the power of adaptability, building systems, and how AI is transforming business. His story is one of resilience, gratitude, and preparing for the future.


Highlights: 

(00:00) Introduction and Guest Welcome
(00:45) Joshua's Early Entrepreneurial Journey
(03:40) H...


The Serendipitous Path to Brand Strategy with Patrick Collins
#47
07/10/2025

While many strategists study business, Patrick Collins studied people, and it made all the difference. He turned his unconventional background in gender studies and his experience growing up in a large family into a superpower for understanding what makes people tick, and what makes brands stick. In this episode, Chris explores Patrick's journey from academic outsider to agency partner at Someoddiplot, proving that the best strategists don't follow rulebooks. Chris and Patrick discuss real brand wins: discovering customer love letters that turned Darn Tough socks into an emotional powerhouse, bridging generational gaps at Lollapalooza with DIY zine culture, and...


Beyond The Vegas Strip With Arnie DiGeorge
#46
06/25/2025

What happens when a creative team is given permission to break every rule in tourism marketing? You get one of the most iconic campaigns in advertising history.

In this episode, Chris sits down with Arnie DiGeorge, Executive Vice President and “New Agency Animal” at R&R Partners, the agency behind Las Vegas’s legendary “What Happens Here, Stays Here” campaign. For 29 years, Arnie has helped transform Vegas from a tourist stop into a global cultural brand rooted in fantasy, freedom, and emotional truth.

Chris and Arnie explore the significance of emotional marketing, how to tap int...


Leading The Sales Rebellion with Dale Dupree
#45
06/04/2025

Are you ready to join The Rebellion? On this episode, Chris talks to Dale Dupree. You may know him as The Copier Warrior, but today, he’s the Founder and leader of The Sales Rebellion. To say that Dale thinks outside of the box would be an understatement. Once the lead singer of his own band, Dale brings the Metalcore mentality to his sales. Chris and Dale break down his disruptive approach to transforming the sales landscape. He also gives us a peek behind the curtain on evolution and the core principles of The Sales Rebellion. Chris and Dale al...


Why Creativity in Marketing Sounds Fun with Alex Gangi
#44
05/21/2025

An all-new episode of We Built This Brand? Sounds Fun! Chris talks with Alex Gangi, Partner, COO, and Head of Production at Sounds Fun, a creative studio known for its embrace of innovative marketing strategies. Alex shares how his passion for film morphed into leading production at a top agency with top-tier clients. Highlights in his career so far include the Coca-Cola Creations campaign and Lenovo's Make Space initiative. Chris and Alex also examine what goes into merging technology and storytelling, the challenges and joys of working with emerging tech like AI and AR, and the creative process behind...


Shooting for Stars & Solving Problems with Lizz Behler
#43
05/07/2025

Nothing inspires imagination quite like a spaceship. On this episode, Chris talks with Lizz Behler, the Senior Vice President of Brand and Offerings at SPCSHP. Lizz opens up about her background and how it led her on the journey to helping rebrand the former Big Spaceship (and why the new name has no vowels). As a big fan of creative problem-solving, she shares how she uses it as a tool to work with clients and as a way to foster growth within her own teams. Lizz also tells us her philosophy on social media and how most people are...


Breaking the Stigma Around Breaking it Off with For Richer Jewelry
#42
04/23/2025

For some people, it’s very hard to hold on to sentimental jewelry from former relationships. In some cases, it’s even harder to let those pieces go if they finally decide to sell them. On this episode, Chris is joined by Brittany Lacey and Stephanie Burset, the founders of For Richer Jewelry. The pair takes a unique approach to reselling jewelry, marketing the value of 'pre-loved' engagement rings. Their business is helping to revolutionize the industry by empowering consumers to buy and sell jewelry on their own terms. Throughout the interview, you’ll hear about their triumphs of starti...


Leadership Behind the Brand with Sunny Bonnell
#41
04/09/2025

What’s your brand’s vision? Does your brand even have a vision? In this enlightening episode, Chris chats with Sunny Bonnell, CEO and Co-Founder of Motto, for an engaging discussion on visionary leadership and brand culture. Sunny shares her inspiring entrepreneurial journey, which began with a bold leap out of vet school and into the world of branding with just $250. Throughout their conversation, Sunny emphasizes the critical role of aligning brand vision and culture within organizations and discusses how effective leadership can nurture innovation and employee empowerment. Through recounting pivotal moments in her career, Sunny provides valuable lessons for...


Going Down the Rabbit Hole with Greg Bellinger
#40
03/26/2025

Are you ready to go down the rabbit hole? In this episode, Chris Hill chats with Greg Bellinger, the Co-Founder and CEO of White Rabbit Group. Greg’s been honing his craft since high school. Teaching himself to code and build websites in college, he’s now a successful entrepreneur who’s worked with folks like FedEx, Instacart, and even The Game Awards. Greg and Chris discuss the origins and growth of his development of White Rabbit, and why they focus on hiring full-time employees and maintaining a strong company culture. If you have that DIY mentality, Greg’s story is...


Shopping While Watching with Eitan Koter
#39
03/19/2025

Why go to the store when you can buy from the comfort of your couch? In this episode, Chris chats with Eitan Koter, Co-Founder and Co-CEO of Vimmi, a trailblazing company in video technology and e-commerce solutions. Eitan shares his journey from video compression to founding Vimmi and explains how his business helps brands monetize video content. Chris and Eitan also discuss the reason you’d bootstrap your company, the convergence of media and commerce, and the role of AI in the future of video marketing. Whether you're an entrepreneur or marketing professional, this episode will help you see th...


Providing Service Through Speaking with Israel Duran
#38
03/12/2025

How do you use your voice? In this episode of We Built This Brand, Chris is joined by Israel Duran, an expert in public speaking, to discuss the transformative power of effective communication. Israel shares his journey from a background in cybersecurity to becoming a renowned speaker, driven by a life-altering car accident. Through insightful anecdotes and practical advice, Israel breaks down his "Service of Speaking" framework and emphasizes the importance of having a clear message, authentic brand, and impactful presence. The conversation also highlights the significance of utilizing platforms like podcasts to refine and broadcast one's message, ultimately...


Finding the Empathy in Data with Ian Baer
#37
03/05/2025

When doing marketing research, you need to remember that there are people behind the data. If anyone understands this, it’s Ian Baer, Founder and CEO of Sooth. During his conversation with Chris, Ian shares his opinions on the evolving landscape of marketing, emphasizing the importance of emotional connection and storytelling in an era where consumers make faster decisions with less information. They also discuss Ian's journey and why brands need to master the art of connecting emotionally with the audience. If you’re in the industry and feel like you’re stagnating, Ian’s outlook provides a fresh perspect...


Giving Campaigns Some Extra Charge with Michelle Fischer
#36
02/26/2025

A good marketing campaign can help a brand charge forward. Chris sits down with Michelle Fischer, Group Creative Director at Battery. As a full-service creative and media advertising agency, Battery has worked with a who’s who of clients, and you’ve seen their work with The LA Clippers, Netflix, and PUBG. Michelle walks us through Battery's unique storytelling approach to branding while touching on a childhood favorite of Chris’s, the (Mighty) Anaheim Ducks. So strap in if you’re looking for a way to get cinematic with your advertising (or want a quick lesson in “farmcore“).



Taking Risks and Going Big with Shannon Harris
#35
02/19/2025

You wanna go Big? In this episode of We Built This Brand, Chris sits down with Shannon Harris, the Executive Creative Director at Big Com.

Her career highlights include working on campaigns for everyone from Google Fiber to Bayer. Born, raised, and working in the Cotton State, Shannon and Big Com recently launched the SEEK AL​ campaign, highlighting her lifelong home.

During their chat, Shannon and Chris explore why creative design thinking and taking risks are important when brand building. Speaking of creativity, did you also know that marketing is “advanced make believe?”



J-Birds of a Feather with Jess Curtis
#34
02/12/2025

What’s a bird to you? To answer that oddly philosophical question, Chris sits down with Jess Curtis, the founder of J-Bird Digital Design. If you’ve ever visited the beautiful HumblePod website, you have Jess to thank for it! On this episode, you’ll get to learn about Jess's creative approach to web development and the importance of fluidity when collaborating in digital branding. Jess also believes in giving back to artists, and she explains why she makes a focused effort to highlight and empower them with J-Bird. Speaking of our avian friends, you’ll even learn how Chris's...


Boldly Hitting the Kentucky Bourbon Trail with Katie Peninger
#33
01/29/2025

It’s time to hit the Kentucky Bourbon Trail! On this episode of "We Built This Brand," Chris sits down with Katie Peninger, VP Account Service at Lewis Communications. While her career started on the creative side, the collaborative culture at Lewis allows her to still be involved in the creative process, just in a different way. Chris and Katie also break down Lewis’s incredible work on celebrating the Kentucky Bourbon Trail's 25th Anniversary. From the website redesign to a 26-hour global livestream, Katie and her team have worked tirelessly to raise awareness of the Kentucky Bourbon Trail. They...


How a MAYOR Serves the People with Megan Brittain
#32
01/15/2025

In this episode of We Built This Brand, Chris goes to THE MAYOR. Well, one of them at least. He sits down with Megan Brittain, Director of Account Management at THE MAYOR, to discuss her journey from her early career beginnings in Texas to her significant role at the upstart agency. Megan and THE MAYOR have played a major role in campaigns for brands like Famous Footwear and Consumer Cellular. She also dives into the unique challenges and opportunities of building an agency while managing personal life, emphasizing the importance of creating a supportive space for working parents. Tune...


Making Advertising a Kindor Space with Glen Hilzinger
#31
12/04/2024

The world of advertising can use a little more kindness and candor. On this episode, Chris is joined by Glen Hilzinger, the Chief Creative Officer at Luquire. Glen is recognized as one of the top copywriters in the world, and he shares his journey from art school to leading an award-winning creative team.  Chris and Glen go into his transition from graphic design to copywriting, his impactful campaigns, and why Luquire promotes a culture of "Kindor.”

Show Highlights

(0:00) Intro(2:04) Glen's background before coming to Luquire(3:08) Going from graphic design to copywriting(5:20) Glen's journey to becoming the Chi...


Brewing Awesome Online Content with Aditi Rajvanshi
#30
11/20/2024

20 years ago, YouTube changed the internet forever. One woman was there to see the platform evolve. On this episode of We Built This Brand, Chris is joined by Aditi Rajvanshi, Head of Strategy for Portal A and a renowned expert in the content creation industry. Aditi shares her fascinating journey from growing YouTube’s presence in India to starting Brewing Awesome, which supports small-to-medium creators. They also discuss the changing landscape of content creation, the significance of community-building, and the evolving role of platforms like YouTube and TikTok.

Show Highlights

(0:00) Intro(1:36) Aditi's background at the dawn of...


Creatively Winging it With Nick Adams
#29
11/06/2024

It’s a viral sensation, all thanks to people being put on hold. Nick Adams is a versatile copywriter and the brains behind the renowned Pizza Hut chicken wing song. He started his journey in the mailroom at GSD&M, but his persistence and creativity led him to become a writer, crafting memorable campaigns and even winning prestigious awards. On this episode, Chris delves into Nick's unique creative process, his comedic style, and his thoughts on current trends in branding and marketing. They also explore his passion for comedy and desire to make impactful, humorous content in the advertising wo...


Tapping into the Fountain of Youth with Clint Runge
#27
10/23/2024

Appealing to your audience is the name of the game in marketing, but what do you do when they’re critical and hard to reach? Enter Clint Runge, the CEO and Co-Founder of Archrival. For decades now, Clint has had his finger on the pulse of what young adults want out of their products. On this episode of We Built This Brand, Clint walks us through Archrival’s growing pains as a small business founded straight out of college, to becoming a marketing juggernaut synonymous with tapping into youth culture. Whether it’s taking the (Red) Bull by the horns...


Outsmarting Brand Behemoths with Dustin Artz
#26
10/09/2024

The world of advertising and marketing is all about standing out, and Dustin Artz is helping spearhead innovative campaigns for noteworthy brands. As a co-founder at Familiar Creatures, he’s dedicated his career to outsmarting the industry’s brand behemoths. On this episode of We Built This Brand, Dustin shares some of the “secret sauce” with Chris about what goes into making his agency stick out. From dumping mayonnaise on college football coaches, to encouraging people to feel good on their fitness journeys, you’ll learn the “Artz” behind some of advertising’s biggest moments in recent years.

Show Highlight...


Finding Your Intuition with Bonnie Casamassima
#25
09/25/2024

Do you listen to that feeling in your gut? The that tells you right from wrong and what you should do next? It’s what we call your “intuition,” and Bonnie Casamassima thinks it should help be your guiding light through life. Coming from a corporate background, Bonnie found herself at the intersection of stress and internal understanding. One day, she had a breakthrough while deep in meditation, revealing her true calling in life - Intuition By Nature. On this episode of We Built This Brand, Bonnie and Chris talk about her business and what it means to listen to you...