Localization Fireside Chat
Welcome to the Localization Fireside Chat, where ideas spark, insights flow, and the global language industry comes to life.This podcast takes you on a journey through the dynamic world of localization, language, AI, and global content strategy. Whether you're a seasoned industry leader or new to the field, you'll find thought-provoking conversations, inspiring stories, and fresh perspectives on how we connect across cultures and languages.Each episode features candid dialogues with localization pioneers, tech innovators, entrepreneurs, and creatives who are shaping the future of global communication. From cultural adaptation and multilingual content to AI in translation, we unpack the...
The Post-Editing Paradox: Why Better AI Made Human Review More Critical | Kincaid Day | EP 238
In this episode of the Localization Fireside Chat, Robin Ayoub sits down with Kincaid Day, VP of Global Strategy and Innovation at Welocalize, for a conversation grounded in 12 months of real agentic translation in production.
Most AI-in-localization conversations are still theoretical. This one is not.
Kincaid breaks down how Opal, Welocalize's agentic translation platform, works in live enterprise environments, why better AI output actually made human review more important, not less, and why closed tech stacks are becoming a strategic liability in the AI era.
They also get into the post-editing paradox, the...
What Happens to You After You Die Online? with Niki Weiss, Digital Thanatologist
Most of us will be the first generation to die with more digital assets than physical ones. Almost none of us have a plan for it.
In this episode of the Localization Fireside Chat, Robin Ayoub sits down with Niki Weiss, a Digital Thanatologist and the Founder and CEO of ENDevo, to ask a question our industry almost never touches: what actually happens to your identity, your data, and your AI generated presence after you are gone, and who controls it when you can no longer advocate for yourself?
It is a heavy topic, but...
Sales & The Polite No: What Buyers Really Think of Localization Sales, with Wada'a Fahel
Most localization vendors believe they know how to sell. The buyer on the other side of the table usually disagrees.
In this episode of the Localization Fireside Chat, Robin Ayoub sits down with Wada'a Fahel, founder of LocVerse and a global experience leader who spent more than twenty years on the client side, building localization functions from the ground up at Xerox, Harley-Davidson, and Zendesk across over 150 markets. She has sat in the chair that decides which vendors win the contract and which get the polite no.
This is a rare, candid look at how...
He Turned $25K Into $1.9M, Lost It, Then Built AI That Protects Your Data | Yagub Rahimov
Yagub Rahimov left Azerbaijan as a teenager on a US cultural exchange program and became an award-winning trader before finishing school, turning 25,000 dollars into 1.9 million before losing most of it to greed. He rebuilt, co-founded a global fintech media group, and exited to private equity in 2020. Today he leads Polygraf AI, an Austin-based company pioneering small language models that run on-premise and on the edge, addressing data leakage, deepfakes, and shadow AI for highly regulated environments.
In this episode, Robin and Yagub talk about the bicycle story that shaped his sense of responsibility, the discipline lessons learned...
Bots Writing Resumes, Bots Screening Them: A DoorDash & OpenTable VP on What Hiring Looks Like Now
Kate Crane studied art history, got laid off six months into her first job during the 2008 financial crisis, and talked her way into a job as a line cook before rebuilding her career through an MBA, management consulting, and a run at DoorDash that took its B2B Drive business from $9 million to over $500 million in revenue.
She went on to lead strategy and operations at Flock Safety, run go-to-market strategy at OpenTable, and is now the founder of Direction Over Perfection, coaching the next generation through nonlinear career paths.
In this episode, Kate and...
Ep. 233: From Tokyo to Barcelona — Yuka Nakasone on Global Bridge, Global Chamber & the Future of Global Business
In this episode of the Localization Fireside Chat, Robin Ayoub welcomes Yuka Nakasone — Founder of Global Bridge and Executive Director of Global Chamber Spain — for a wide-ranging conversation about building a career across borders.
From her early career in the localization industry — including time at Lionbridge and Intento — to her journey from Japan to Barcelona, to leading a 600-city international business network, Yuka shares the story behind Global Bridge and her perspective on how AI is reshaping localization and global business
Topics covered:
Yuka's journey from Japan to Barcelona
How the localiza...
Why Most Brands Are Invisible to ChatGPT (And How to Fix It) | Chris Raulf | Ep. 232
Generative Engine Optimization (GEO) is rewriting the rules of online visibility — and most brands, including most language and localization companies, aren't even on the field yet.
In this episode, Robin Ayoub sits down with Chris Raulf, Founder & CEO of Boulder SEO Marketing and one of the world's most recognized AI SEO and GEO experts. Chris has been in search since before Google was even called Google, and he brings nearly 30 years of experience — including time inside the localization industry at Lionbridge and RWS — to break down how AI platforms like ChatGPT, Perplexity, and Google AI Overvie...
Starbucks Failed in Australia. Here's What They Missed. | Cynthia Dearin | LFC Ep. 230
Globalization isn't dying — it's changing hands. And most mid-sized companies are completely unprepared for what that means.
Cynthia Dearin is the Founder and CEO of Dearin & Associates, international business strategist, keynote speaker, and author of Camels, Sheikhs and Billionaires and Business Beyond Borders. Her third book, The Global Standard, is forthcoming.
In this episode we cover why globalization is reshaping not retreating, the Starbucks Australia disaster and what every company can learn from it, why the UAE leaving OPEC signals a fracturing of the old world order, how geopolitics is now your business problem whether yo...
The AI Mastermind Effect: Why Multi-Agent AI Changes Everything | Damini Delisle
In this episode Robin sits down with Damini Delisle, Chief Executioner at Bloomstack — a human-first multi-agent AI collaboration platform built for founders and CEOs who can't afford AI mistakes.
Damini's journey is unlike any other guest on this show. She started her career selling Hyundai cars in India, moved into marketing and design thinking, discovered permaculture during COVID, grew a food forest, made a lamp out of a bottle gourd she grew herself, and helped rebuild Bloomstack from an ERP cannabis platform into one of the most transparent AI collaboration systems being built today.
...
How to Live Anywhere, Own Everything, and Pay Less Tax — Legally | Bobby Casey | Ep. 229
What if you could legally cut your taxes by 50–90%, protect your assets from frivolous claims, and run your business from anywhere on earth? Bobby Casey has spent over two decades helping entrepreneurs do exactly that.
Bobby is the managing partner of Global Wealth Protection and the founder of BusinessAnywhere — an all-in-one platform for location-independent founders to form US companies, get virtual mailboxes, and stay compliant online.
In this episode, we get into the real mechanics of international tax strategy, asset protection, and what it actually takes to build a borderless business — legally, sustainably, and on your t...
Your Defensible Zone: How to Stay Valuable When AI Is Rewriting the Rules | Dilip Chetan | Ep. 228
What happens to your career when AI can do most of what you were hired to do?
Dilip Chetan is the founder of Recursio Lab and creator of the Defensible Zone framework — a practical approach to helping professionals understand where their natural strengths meet real market demand in an AI-disrupted world.
In this episode we cover:
Why "what can't AI do?" is the wrong question — and what to ask instead
The difference between natural affinity and passion, and why it matters for career survival
What the localization and l...
From Tools to Transformation: How a CPA Rebuilt His Practice with AI | Peter McCarroll
Most AI conversations in professional services stay at the surface. Peter McCarroll goes deeper. As a practicing CA and CPA running Fuel Accountants, he spent two years deploying AI across real client workflows before building The AI Accountant — the only training and implementation platform built exclusively for CAS practices.
In this conversation with Robin Ayoub, Peter breaks down the Sequoia Capital investment thesis and why the funded startups targeting accounting work directly are a bigger threat than any AI tool. He walks through the four strategic moves that separate firms absorbing this disruption from the ones being di...
From Crisis to Comeback: The Fixer Who Became the Patient | Trè Anne Bartlett
Episode #226 of the Localization Fireside Chat.
Trè Anne Bartlett spent years as the expert. Clinical social worker, crisis interventionist, the person other people called when their systems were collapsing. Then her own system collapsed. A 10 pound mass in her colon. A permanent ileostomy. A 5% survival prognosis. The fixer became the patient.
What came next was not recovery in the usual sense. It was a full systemic reconstruction of body, mind, emotional regulation, identity, and finances. Out of that came the work she does today. A private strategic advisory at the intersection of...
The AI That Outperformed the Doctor | Kirsten Karchmer, Founder & CEO, Conceivable Technologies | Ep. 225
97% of couples are priced out of fertility treatment. One IVF cycle costs the equivalent of a year's salary. And most of what women are told about their reproductive health is incomplete at best.
Kirsten Karchmer spent 20 years in the clinic helping over 10,000 women. Then she built an AI platform that outperformed her own clinical results by 6% — increasing the likelihood of conception by 260%, at one thousandth the cost of IVF.
In this episode, Robin Ayoub sits down with Kirsten Karchmer, Founder and CEO of Conceivable Technologies, to unpack the fertility crisis no one is talking about, wh...
The Story of CLIA: 24 Years of Collaboration, Impact & Growth | Kim Pines, Lola Bendana, Maryse Benhoff, André Palaguine, Paul Penzo, Peter Madahian
What does it take to build an industry association from scratch and keep it alive for 24 years on pure volunteer power? Six of CLIA's most influential founding members sit down with Robin Ayoub to tell the story nobody has heard in full. From the fragmentation of 2002 to a coast-to-coast voice for Canada's language industry, this is the inside story.
In this episode of Localization Fireside Chat, Robin Ayoub sits down with Kim Pines, Lola Bendana, Maurice Benhoff, André Palaguine, Paul Penzo, and Peter Madahian to explore the origin, evolution, and future of the Canadian Language In...
The Google Translate Journey: From Statistical to Neural to LLM | Macduff Hughes
Macduff Hughes spent 35 years in tech — including 8 years managing the Adobe Acrobat team and 12 years leading Google Translate. He co-authored the landmark 2016 GNMT research paper alongside Jeff Dean and 29 others, overseeing an error reduction of up to 85% on some language pairs overnight. He retired in 2024 having guided the team through statistical MT, neural MT, and into the LLM era.
In this episode:
- How statistical machine translation actually worked — and why it had a ceiling
- The 2016 neural transition: the decision, the disruption, and the human side
- What 500 milli...
70% of Leaders Are Making Their Companies Worse. | Dr. Kelly Monahan | Ep. 222
In this episode of the Localization Fireside Chat, Robin Ayoub sits down with Dr. Kelly Monahan — researcher, TEDx speaker, and co-author of Essential — for one of the most data-rich and honest conversations about leadership and AI we've had on the show.
Kelly opens with the story that shaped her career: growing up in Rochester, New York as Kodak quietly laid off 45,000 workers — and realizing that Kodak's failure wasn't technical, it was cultural and leadership-driven. That insight has guided 15 years of research ever since.
From there, Robin and Kelly cover why leaders are losing the plot on AI...
Why Your AI Tools Keep Failing — And the Fix Is Simpler Than You Think | Marvin Martinez, Bandsaw AI
Most AI implementations fail — not because of the technology, but because business owners are buying tools without fixing the underlying process. Marvin Martinez spent 13 years running operations for a BPO in Nicaragua before co-founding Bandsaw AI. His edge: he's the operations guy who knows AI, not the other way around. In this episode we cover: - Why most AI implementations don't deliver ROI - The real difference between a tool, a workflow, and an AI agent - How to identify the first workflow worth automating - A real AI voice agent that saved a locksmith $1,000/month in missed calls...
AI in Sales: Why You're Measuring the Wrong Things | Jack Siney | Ep. 220
In this episode, Robin and Jack cover why garbage-in-garbage-out is still the defining problem in AI-powered sales, how FrontRace aggregates and normalizes activity data across existing systems without replacing them, why standardized KPIs applied to non-standard deals and non-standard reps is a fundamentally broken model, the Moneyball analogy for sales performance management, and why Jack's best advice to any sales leader right now is to get to January 1, 2027 with clean unified data and fully documented process flows before touching AI deployment.
Jack's white paper, The 15 AI Truths Every Sales Leader Will Face in 2026, is referenced throughout and...
Building the Infrastructure for ASI | Ganesh Krishnan | Ep. 219
In this episode of the Localization Fireside Chat, Robin Ayoub sits down with Ganesh Krishnan, Founder of AiHello.com and HalZero.ai, to explore what it takes to build AI infrastructure that doesn't hallucinate, and why that matters for every business deploying AI today.
Ganesh manages over $1 billion in annual Amazon ad revenue for 5,000+ sellers including Bose and L'Oreal, and is now building the foundational infrastructure for Artificial Super Intelligence through HalZero.ai, in collaboration with University of Toronto researchers and Google DeepMind.
Topics covered:
Why hallucination in AI is a business catastrophe, not...He Ran City IT. Now He Builds the Software That Runs Cities. | Tom Amburgey, Euna Solutions
$600 billion in public funds managed through software that governments depend on every single day. And some of them were still running on spreadsheets.
Tom Amburgey is the CEO of Euna Solutions, a North American govtech platform serving more than 3,600 public sector organizations across the US and Canada. He spent years as CIO inside two Florida municipalities before crossing to the vendor side, meaning he has literally sat in the chair his customers sit in today.
In this episode, Robin and Tom discuss:
The full-circle story of being a customer of his o...
The Future of Business Is Localization. Why AI Alone Won't Save Your Global Content.
In this episode of the Localization Fireside Chat, Robin Ayoub sits down with Simon Hodgkins, Chief Marketing Officer of Vistatec, one of the world's most recognized global content solutions providers, headquartered in Dublin and serving iconic brands worldwide for nearly 30 years.
Before Vistatec, Simon was a director at BT Group across multiple geographies, helped build Europe's fastest growing broadband company, and led cloud and marketing operations globally at Sage PLC. He joined Vistatec in 2014 and has since built an entire ecosystem around globalization including the Think Global Forum, Think Global Award, Vista Talk, VTQ Magazine, and the...
Your AI Pilot Worked. Now What? Why Enterprise AI Dies Before Production
In this episode of the Localization Fireside Chat, Robin Ayoub sits down with Omid Pakseresht, founder and CEO of GOODFOLIO, a London-based AI venture studio that builds and deploys specialised AI systems directly into enterprise workflows across financial compliance, strategic intelligence, retail AI, and neurological diagnostics.
Omid arrived in the UK from Iran at 16, studied mathematics at Oxford, worked as a quantitative analyst at Record Currency Management, and founded TransferGuru before spending the last decade building enterprise AI products. He co-founded GOODFOLIO with his brother, combining product and commercial expertise with deep academic and deployment experience in...
AI Won't Rank You. It Will Retrieve You. Or Ignore You. | Gaetano Romeo | Ep. 215
What if everything you know about SEO is already obsolete? Gaetano Romeo built one of the sharpest global SEO minds in Europe, starting as a tourist guide in Palermo before moving to Berlin where he worked with Zalando, Groupon, and later Nespresso. Today he leads global digital marketing across six language markets at EasyVista and OTRS Group, lectures at two Italian universities, has written six books, and was just named to the HockeyStack AI x GTM 50 as the only Italian on the list.
In this conversation Gaetano unpacks his concept of evidence engineering, explaining why AI systems...
Why 85% of Your Customers Won't Buy From Your Website | Christina Spaulding | Manzanita Marketing
In this episode of the Localization Fireside Chat, Robin Ayoub sits down with Christina Spaulding, founder of Manzanita Marketing in Las Vegas, for a wide-ranging conversation on what it really takes to win in multilingual and international markets.
Christina shares her personal journey from studying French and German in college, interning in Germany and staying for six years, to navigating seven layoffs before founding her own agency. The conversation covers why businesses consistently underestimate the cost of staying English-only, how the 85% purchase preference stat translates into real ROI for SMB owners, and why Spanish-language SEO in the...
The Pitch Deck Is Dead. An 18-Year-Old Has the Proof. | Elie Bouzaglou | Ep. 213
Elie Bouzaglou is 18 years old. He left school, built a web agency scaled with AI, got rejected by every crowdfunding platform, and turned that rejection into FishTank — a platform he describes as Shark Tank meets TikTok, purpose-built to democratize entrepreneurship and break down the barriers keeping talented founders out of the room. In this episode, Robin Ayoub sits down with Elie to unpack why the pitch deck is dying, how short-form video is becoming the new fundraising currency, and why his first VC investor found him through an Instagram video — not a deck. Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/AYyy...
81% of Buyers Already Chose Before Your First Call — Braydan Young, SlashExperts
In this episode Robin and Braydan cover:
How CoffeeSender, a viral sales experiment, became Sendoso after a cease-and-desist letter from Starbucks Scaling Sendoso through COVID from 50 to 1,000 employees and the painful reality of mass layoffs done humanely Why Braydan left a $152M company to start over and what problem he could not stop thinking about The core insight behind SlashExperts: 81% of buyers choose a preferred vendor before talking to sales, and 77% engage with non-sales personnel first How the platform works: connecting prospects with verified happy customers via automated booking, CRM integration, and AI matching What happens to deal...Your Cloud Vendor Might Be Your Biggest Risk | Murphy John, StorX Network
Murphy John has spent over 20 years at the intersection of enterprise IT and distributed infrastructure. His conclusion: the centralized cloud model isn't just expensive — it's structurally fragile by design. In this episode, Murphy walks us through how StorX Network is building a decentralized storage ecosystem across more than 3,000 autonomous nodes worldwide, and why that matters for organizations handling multilingual content, AI training data, translation memories, and cross-border compliance workflows.
Topics covered in this episode:
- Why centralized cloud is a single point of failure
- How StorX encrypts, fragments, and distributes dat...
Most Companies Go Global. Very Few Are Built For It. | Talia Baruch | GlobalSaké & LocLearn | LFC Ep. 210
Talia Baruch is back on the Localization Fireside Chat for Episode 210, and this one covers serious ground.
First, a firsthand recap of GlobalSaké 2026, the sold-out Global-First AI Roundtable held at Adobe HQ in San Francisco on April 30, 2026. Talia shares what made the event unique, why attendees refused to leave, what came out of the five expert-led roundtable tracks, and why the content could have filled a two-day conference.
Then we shift to LocLearn and Talia's newest course: AI-Powered Geo-Culturalization of Visual Assets, taught by localization consultant and AI trainer Dorota Pawlak. Thi...
Are You Hiring in Ontario? Navigating Bill 149 with Julie Alleyn
Julie Alleyn spent 25 years moving through some of the most demanding industries in Canada — pharmaceuticals, law, broadcast media, engineering, and funeral services — before founding Pegasus Evolution, a bilingual fractional HR consulting and leadership coaching firm serving SMEs across Canada.
In this episode, Robin and Julie cover:
What Bill 149 requires from Ontario employers as of January 1, 2026, including salary range disclosure, AI screening disclosure, speculative vacancy disclosure, and the 45-day candidate notification obligation The ban on requiring Canadian experience in job postings and what it means in practice What the HR Pulse Check diagnostic reveals that most business owne...You Have 3 Beneficiaries: CRA, Family & Charity. You Only Pick Two. | Mark Halpern
In this episode of the Localization Fireside Chat, Robin Ayoub sits down with Mark Halpern, CFP, TEP, MFA-P, CEO of WEALTHinsurance.com — one of Canada's most recognized voices on estate planning, tax minimization, and philanthropic legacy planning.
Mark's story begins at age 11 when he lost his father suddenly with no will, no life insurance, and no financial plan in place. That experience became the engine of his entire career. Thirty-five years later, his advisory work has directed $100M+ to over 60 Canadian charities.
In this conversation, Mark and Robin cover:
The "struggle muscle" and what lo...He Healed Bipolar 1 and PTSD Without Medication. Then Built an Emotional Operating System for Leaders | Thayne Martin
In this episode of the Localization Fireside Chat, Robin Ayoub sits down with Thayne Martin, Founder and CEO of itspurelove.com and creator of ELAH eqOS, the Emotional Operating System for Optimal Human Performance.
Thayne spent over three decades as a top-performing sales executive across automotive, SaaS, finance, banking, and logistics. He earned President's Club six times and consistently ranked in the top 10% nationally, all while silently managing DID, complex PTSD, bipolar 1, and ADHD resulting from childhood abuse by a religious cult. After a near-death drowning accident that put him in a coma, Thayne walked a...
The Psychology of Freelance Burnout — What Nobody Warned You About | Meytal Raizes
Meytal Raizes is an occupational psychologist with a background in neuropsychology and over a decade in psychological assessment. After eight years as a freelancer — four fully remote — she burned out. Instead of quietly recovering, she asked the question the psychology field had largely ignored: what does burnout look like when you work alone?
In this episode, Meytal and Robin explore the structural gap between employee and freelancer burnout, the role of shame in keeping it hidden, and why classic recovery advice — take time off, set better boundaries, work less — fails freelancers completely. Meytal introduces her five freelance burnout...
When AI Gets Culture Wrong | Melissa McMahon | Acclaro
What happens when AI generates content across dozens of markets and cultural intelligence is missing from the pipeline? In this episode, Robin sits down with Melissa McMahon, a localization veteran with 20+ years of experience, to unpack the concept of Cultural Intelligence and why it is becoming a strategic necessity for global marketing teams.
Melissa shares her journey from financial translator to building a 40-person multilingual team at SDL across 55 source languages, and what she has learned about the gap between translation and true cultural resonance. The conversation covers how AI amplifies cultural missteps at scale, where human...
He Built a $1B Unicorn. Three Times. | Sreedhar Peddineni
What does it take to define an entirely new software category, not once, not twice, but three times? Sreedhar Peddineni co-founded Host Analytics (now Planful) and helped CFOs escape Excel hell, co-founded Gainsight and coined the term "Customer Success Manager" turning support from a cost center into a revenue engine and building a $1.1B unicorn, and now in 2026 he is building GTM Buddy to fix what he sees as a broken sales enablement industry. Robin and Sreedhar cover systems thinking as a founder superpower, the economics of net dollar retention, why companies keep cutting the wrong functions when times...
Sovereign AI Is Here: Canada's Language Intelligence Revolution | André Palaguine & Mugais Jahangir
In this episode Robin reconnects with an old colleague from the Lexi-tech International days, André Palaguine, now CEO of the newly launched LIC Language Intelligence Corporation. Joining them is Mugais Jahangir, CRO of LIC and Head of Sales at memoQ, the Hungarian language technology leader whose platform powers the LIC product stack.
Together they cover: how the localization industry has transformed since the early days when translation was not even a recognized business term, the strategic thinking behind building a joint venture rather than an organic startup, what the "bring your own LLM" design philosophy means for e...
Your Business Isn't Stuck. Your Blind Spots Are. | Mark Lim | Magnetic Alliance
Most founders are excellent at their product or service. What holds them back is everything around it. Mark Lim has spent 22 years working inside businesses as a Co-CEO, integrating finance, strategy, sales, operations, HR, and technology simultaneously to drive sustainable and profitable growth. His firm Magnetic Alliance has grown 262x, with year-on-year growth in 13 of the last 14 years. In this conversation, Mark breaks down the common blind spots that appear in nearly every founder-led business, the difference between healthy confidence and dangerous delusion, how he helps business owners take calculated risks they would never tackle alone, and why he...
He Built 12 Failed Businesses. Then Created 1,000 Inbound Leads a Month Using AI. | Deepak Shukla
Deepak Shukla dropped out of Deloitte, spent his twenties launching over a dozen businesses that never quite worked, and founded Pearl Lemon in 2016 at age 30 from a bedroom in Amsterdam on his birthday. Eight years later, Pearl Lemon Group is a seven-figure operation spanning SEO, lead generation, PR, web, accounting, and properties. The thread connecting everything, as Deepak puts it, is effective communication, which is really what marketing has always been.
In this conversation, Robin and Deepak cover the shift from outbound-only cold email and Upwork pitches to a fully inbound model driven by SEO a...
Your AI Is Not the Problem. Your Leadership System Is. | Jürgen Dauk
In Episode 200 of the Localization Fireside Chat, Robin Ayoub sits down with Jürgen Dauk, business advisor, leadership systems expert, and author of The Leadership Operating System. Jürgen shares his journey from microelectronics student to VP-level executive across some of Europe's largest tech companies, and what finally pushed him to walk away from corporate life to build something of his own.
The conversation covers why most vision statements inspire nobody, how agile decision-making actually works in practice, and what separates organizations that execute on AI from those that just spend on it. Jürgen also shares his...
Most Companies Go Global. Very Few Are Built For It. | Talia Baruch | GlobalSaké
In this episode of the Localization Fireside Chat, host Robin Ayoub sits down with Talia Baruch, Founder and CEO of GlobalSaké and LocLearn, and a veteran global growth executive with senior roles at Google, LinkedIn, and SurveyMonkey.
Talia founded GlobalSaké in 2017 as a cross-functional community of 3,000+ tech leaders driving international expansion. In 2023 she launched LocLearn, a professional upskill school offering certificate courses in International Product Management. She is also an adjunct professor who has taught at Hult International Business School, San Francisco State University, and Middlebury Institute of International Studies.
In this conversation, Talia and Ro...