Shoulders Down
When you live in the diet mindset, you spend much of your time living in your head- constantly tallying, dwelling, and stressing over your food and lifestyle choices. When you become an intuitive eater, you learn to drop into your body and start living shoulders down. The territory below your shoulders contains your innate wisdom and power. Shoulders Down is a podcast designed to teach you how to harness your intuition to govern not just how you eat but also how you live. Shoulders Down Podcast is hosted by Anti-Diet Dietitian and Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor, Leah Kern, who works...
📢 You're allowed to care about health.
Less podcast episode, more PSA.
More From Leah:
📚Download your free Intuitive Eating Starter PackApply to The Embodied Method, my 1:1 coaching programJoin my self-paced course, The ReturnSubscribe to Leah's Youtube ChannelSubscribe to my personal SubstackFollow me on Instagram for more intuitive eating content @leahkern.rdVisit my website to learn more about my coaching offeringsSubscribe to my weekly newsletter to get a nugget of intuitive eating inspiration delivered straight from my heart to your inbox each week.Send me a voice message on SpeakpipeEmail me: Leah@leahkernrd.com🏃♀️ What If Movement Wasn't About Changing Your Body? Exploring Attuned Exercise with Martha Munroe
In this episode of Shoulders Down, Leah sits down with Martha Munroe, author of Attuned Exercise, to explore what it means to build a healthier relationship with movement. Drawing from over two decades in the fitness industry and her background in positive psychology and embodiment, Martha shares a compassionate alternative to the shame, guilt, and perfectionism that so often define exercise routines.
Martha shares how her perspective on fitness evolved after recognizing the harm caused by weight-centric messaging and toxic fitness culture. Together, she and Leah unpack the difference between exercising from a place of self-criticism versus...
✊ Rage is the Answer: Body Liberation, Psychedelics, & Unlearning Fatphobia with Paula D. Atkinson
In this episode of Shoulders Down, Leah sits down with licensed psychotherapist Paula D. Atkinson to explore the intersection of body image, eating disorders, social justice, and body liberation.
Paula shares her personal journey from growing up as a fat child, developing anorexia as a teenager, and eventually becoming a therapist, educator, and advocate for body justice. Together, Leah and Paula discuss the history of fatphobia, the limitations of weight-centric definitions of health, and why healing body image requires more than individual self-acceptance.
Their conversation explores the role of systemic oppression in shaping body image...
🧇 How to Figure Out What You're Craving
Being in touch with your body’s cues is one of the central pieces of intuitive eating. But what if, when asking your body “what are you craving?” you hear crickets…
In this episode, Leah helps you think through how to actually figure out what you’re craving.
She covers several practical tips you can implement immediately to help guide you towards what you’re body is asking for.
👉 ENROLL IN WHAT TO EAT, a workshop on August 10th, 2026
Mentioned In This Episode:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/19...🍎 Fat-Lived Experience as a Dietitian, Body Grief, and Endocrine Conditions with Chelsea Levy
In this episode of Shoulders Down, Leah sits down with Chelsea Levy, MS, RDN, a weight-inclusive dietitian specializing in eating disorders, PCOS, diabetes, and endocrine-related conditions.
Chelsea shares her personal journey from chronic dieting and weight cycling to discovering intuitive eating while studying to become a dietitian. Together, Leah and Chelsea explore the realities of living in a weight-centric world, the impact of weight stigma on healthcare and body image, and why body respect can sometimes be a more accessible goal than body love.
They also discuss body image grief, the challenges of navigating medical...
😐 Why It Feels So Hard to Figure Out What To Eat (& How To Fix It)
In this solo episode, Leah talks about why it can feel so hard to figure out what to eat when you’re coming from a history of dieting.
She outlines some of the main obstacles she sees clients running into, and then offers a solution for how to transition into intuitive eating without feeling like you’re free falling.
She gets into:
Why figuring out what to eat is likely a muscle you haven’t strengthenHow loosing the structure of dieting can feel destabilizing and overwhelming.The obstacle of knowing what sounds good but not kn...📊 The Weight Loss Research Nobody Talks About with Ragen Chastain
In this episode of Shoulders Down, Leah sits down with Ragen Chastain, speaker, researcher, board-certified patient advocate, and leading voice in the fields of weight science, weight stigma, and healthcare.
Ragen shares her personal journey from years of chronic dieting and an eating disorder to becoming a weight-inclusive health advocate. She explains what happened when she conducted an extensive review of the weight loss literature and discovered that the evidence did not support many of the claims she had been taught to believe.
Together, Leah and Ragen explore the intersection of weight science, healthcare, and...
✌️Responding To Hate Comments From The Jillian Michaels Debate
In this episode, I respond to and unpack some of the most common comments I received after the viral Jillian Michaels vs. Body Positivity debate video was published.
I’ll be honest: it took me a long time to record this episode. Reading through hostile and misinformed comments is unpleasant. But I ultimately decided this conversation was worth having, because the comments reveal deep misunderstandings about weight, health, and what ethical nutrition care actually looks like.
In this episode, I cover:
Why I said that I believe its unethical to encourage weight los ( and how...🌞 Intuitive Eating 5 Years Later: Parts Work, Group Fitness, & Cycle Syncing with Lizzie
In this episode of Shoulders Down, Leah reconnects with former client Lizzie Marks for a conversation about what intuitive eating looks like five years later — and how healing your relationship with food can ripple into every area of life.
Lizzie shares how her early intuitive eating journey began with swinging fully away from rigid food rules and exercise habits, and how she eventually found her way toward a more nuanced middle ground with movement, nutrition, and self-trust.
Together, Leah and Lizzie explore how concepts from Internal Family Systems (IFS) and parts work have helped Lizzie na...
🧠 ADHD, Body Image & Intuitive Eating: Making Sense of the Overlap with Brittany Modell
In this episode of Shoulders Down, Leah sits down with Brittany Modell to explore the nuanced relationship between ADHD, body image, and eating behaviors — and how neurodivergence can shape our experience with food in ways that are often misunderstood.
Brittany shares her personal story growing up immersed in diet culture, from early Weight Watchers meetings to navigating a lifelong sense of feeling “out of control” around food. Together, she and Leah unpack how ADHD can intensify food thoughts, disrupt hunger and fullness cues, and complicate traditional approaches to intuitive eating.
This conversation brings much-needed compassion and cl...
🏃♀️ Extractive vs. Regenerative Movement: Reframing Your Relationship with Running with Karly Borden
In this episode of Shoulders Down, Leah sits down with Karly Borden, founder of The Public Run Club, to explore what it really looks like to rebuild a relationship with running after disordered eating.
Karly shares her personal story of navigating eating disorder recovery and the often-overlooked challenge of returning to exercise in a way that feels safe, grounded, and self-trust-driven. Together, they unpack the tension between discipline and intuition, and why so many people feel stuck in the “murky middle” of movement — not fully disordered, but not fully free either.
Leah and Karly also dive i...
🔄 Transfer Addiction: When Substance Recovery Shifts Into Orthorexia with Sydney Greene
In this episode of Shoulders Down, Leah sits down with certified eating disorder specialist Sydney Greene, to explore the overlap between disordered eating and substance use.
Sydney shares her personal story of growing up around addiction, developing orthorexia, and later navigating sobriety — only to find her compulsive behaviors shifting toward exercise, clean eating, and wellness. Leah and Sydney unpack how addiction and disordered eating often co-occur, why recovery isn’t always linear, and how socially praised behaviors can mask deeper struggles.
Together, they discuss the concept of transfer addiction, how one compulsive behavior can replace anot...
📺 Unpacking the Viral Jubilee Body Positivity Debate with Marcy Guevara
In this episode of Shoulders Down, Leah sits down with plus-size style expert and reality TV producer Marcy Guevara-Prete to reflect on their experience participating in a viral Jubilee debate with fitness personality Jillian Michaels.
Leah and Marcy unpack what it was like to engage in a highly charged, public conversation about body positivity, health, and weight — and how lived experience, media framing, and personal values shaped their perspectives in the moment and afterward.
Marcy shares her journey from lifelong dieting to body acceptance and fat liberation, her nuanced perspective on health and movement, and th...
🤔 We Watched The Jillian Michaels Debate Back... And Had Thoughts [with Edie Stark, LCSW]
In this episode of Shoulders Down, Leah sits down with therapist Edie Stark, LCSW, to discuss their thoughts on the final edit of the Jillian Michaels x Body Positivity debate.
Leah and Edie reflect on what they thought of the edit, how it felt to watch the video back (after experiencing it in real time a few months ago), and what frustrated them about the final video.
Mentioned in this episode:
First episode reflecting with Edie (before we saw the final edit)Watch the Debate He...🎥 Behind the Scenes of the "Jillian Michaels vs Body Positivity" Debate with Edie Stark
In this episode of Shoulders Down, Leah sits down with therapist Edie Stark, LCSW, to unpack their experience participating in a debate with fitness personality Jillian Michaels on the popular YouTube channel Jubilee.
Leah and Edie reflect on what it was like to step into a highly produced debate environment discussing body positivity, weight stigma, and health claims — and how the format of viral media can shape the conversation in ways that prioritize spectacle over nuance.
Together, they discuss the challenges of debating weight stigma in a reality-TV style setting, the misconceptions about bo...
🌾The Ultra Processed Panic: Re-Domesticating Women, Pressure to Cook ‘From Scratch,’ & The Rise of Tradwifedom with Laura Thomas, PhD
Is the backlash against ultra-processed foods really about health… or is it about control? In this episode of Shoulders Down, Leah and Laura Thomas, PhD, explore the growing moral panic around ultra-processed foods — and what’s really driving the conversation.
Laura explains why much of the research linking ultra-processed foods (UPFs) to poor health outcomes is observational, and how these headlines often oversimplify complex public health data. The conversation goes beyond nutrition science to examine how food narratives are shaped by gender roles, class privilege, and today’s political climate.
Together, Leah and Laura explore the conn...
💍 Choosing Presence Over Weight Loss as a Plus Size Bride— with Jamie
In this episode of Shoulders Down, Leah talks with Jamie (returning guest and close friend) about navigating wedding planning as a plus-size bride — without pursuing weight loss.
Rather than changing her body for her wedding day, Jamie shares how she made intentional accommodations to support comfort, confidence, and presence. Together, Leah and Jamie explore wedding culture pressures, how to prioritize feeling like yourself, and practical advice for planning a wedding in a larger body.
You’ll hear about:
Why major life events often trigger body image anxietyChoosing accommodations instead of trying to change your body...🥗 Orthorexia: When “Healthy" Eating Becomes Dangerous
In this episode of Shoulders Down Podcast, Leah takes a deep dive into Orthorexia Nervosa — a form of disordered eating that often hides behind “clean eating,” wellness, and the pursuit of health.
Leah shares her personal experience with Orthorexia, explains how healthy eating can cross the line into rigidity and anxiety, and breaks down the symptoms, risk factors, and potential health consequences of an having an obsession with nutrition. She also explores how intuitive eating can support healing and food freedom.
You’ll hear about:
What orthorexia is and how it diffe...🩺 A Pediatrician’s Perspective on GLP-1s, Diet Culture, & Adolescent Health — with Dr. Lauren Hartman
In this episode of Shoulders Down Podcast, Leah talks with Dr. Lauren Hartman, a double board-certified pediatrician and adolescent medicine specialist, about why dieting and weight-focused care can be especially harmful for children and teens — and what she’s seeing on the front lines of adolescent eating disorder treatment.
Drawing from nearly 20 years of experience across hospital systems, outpatient care, and national leadership roles, Dr. Hartman explains why weight loss is rarely sustainable, how dieting increases eating disorder risk, and why a medicalized focus on weight often misses what young people actually need to thrive.
Leah...
🕵️♀️ Inside Overeaters Anonymous: Abstinence, Fat Serenity, & Co-Dependency with Libby Supan, LMFT
In this episode of Shoulders Down Podcast, Leah talks with therapist and certified intuitive eating counselor, Libby Supan, about her 15 years in Overeaters Anonymous (OA) — and why she ultimately believes the program worsened her eating disorder rather than healed it.
Libby shares how OA’s abstinence-based model, the idea of food and sugar addiction, and rigid sponsorship dynamics fueled binge eating, shame, and co-dependency. Together, Leah and Libby unpack the concept of “fat serenity,” the fatphobia embedded in the OA ethos, and why abstinence backfires.
Libby also explains how eating disorder treatment and intuitive eating helped h...
🥛 Proteinification, Pilates, Glucose Monitors & The Wellness Trends That Shaped 2025
In this episode, Leah's reflection on 6 wellness trends that shaped 2025.
She covers:
The proteinification of everything & whether or not its worth the hypeGLP-1s and the normalization of thinness at all costsIncreased body monitoring— Oura Rings, Glucose Monitors, & Apple Watches— & how this might impact intuitive eating Pilates culture: the matching sets, the "toned but not too muscular" promise, & the elitist, weight stigmatizing undertonesThe pros & the cons of our cultural obsession with stepsMentioned in the episode:
5 Reasons Why Your Weight Doesn't Determine Your Health episode: https://leahkernrd.com/%F0%9F%91%89-5-reasons-why-your-weight-doesnt-determine-your-health/More Fr...
💔 The Ethics of GLP-1s, Prescribed Starvation, & The Liberatory Heartbreak of Fatness with Virgie Tovar
In this episode, I sit down with fat activist, author, podcaster, and feminist, Virgie Tovar. We cover:
Virgie's experience growing up in a fat family and how that shaped her early relationship with her bodyFat activism vs body positivity & the evolution of these frameworks The intersection of queerness & fatness, & the having your heartbroken by the culture The ethics of GLP-1’s and prescribed starvationGLP-1s as a pump an dump marketing cyclingHow to cope with feeling the pressure of going on a GLP-1 for weight lossLiving a life of integrity vs a life of apologyMor...
📷 What To Do If You Hate How You Look In Pictures [with Bri Campos]
In this episode, Leah is joined by licensed therapist and body image expert, Bri Campos, to talk about picture grief.
Learn more from Bri on her website.
More from Leah:
Download your free Intuitive Eating Starter Kit
Apply to The Embodied Method, my 1:1 coaching program
Join my self-paced course, The Return
Subscribe to my personal Substack
Visit my website to learn more about my coaching offerings
Subscribe to my weekly newsletter to get a nugget of intuitive eating inspiration delivered straight from my h...
🍂 How to Survive Diet Talk, Body Comments & The Urge To Overeat Around The Holidays [REPOST]
In this episode, we cover:
My story with navigating the holiday season before and after becoming an intuitive eater and healing my body imageCommon hurdles to navigating the holidays as an intuitive eaterSpecific tips for handling loved-ones still entrenched in diet cultureHow to avoid eating past comfortable fullness at the big holiday meal(s)Dealing with the desire to fill the void of unmet needs with food Moving through the sadness that can come up when a delicious celebratory meal is coming to an end. Navigating the situation where you’re being hosted for the holidays and don’t have...🕊️ Obesity Medicine, GLP-1’s, Body Autonomy, & Informed Consent with Dr. Alexis Conason
In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Alexis Conason, Licensed Therapist and Certified Eating Disorder Consultant. We discuss:
How Alexis went from studying Obesity Medicine to weight inclusive medicineWhat the Obesity Medicine research actually points toHow to navigate the tension between validating desire for weight change while also wanting food freedomWhat might really be underneath statements like, “I just felt better when I was X pounds lighter.”How working alongside her husband, another weight-neutral provider, has impacted her workTips for finding a non-diet, HAES-aligned therapistMore From Alexis:
https://drconason.com/https://www.conasonpsychologicalservices.com/abo...🤨 Did Diet Culture Hijack Your Values?
In this episode, we discuss:
How diet culture can steal our valuesValues-aligned living, resilience, & confidenceHow to tell if you're acting out of alignment with your valuesAn exercise for figuring out your valuesResources Mentioned:
Values Exercise: https://d11n7da8rpqbjy.cloudfront.net/leahkernrd/482_1669901562874Confidence_ValuesDrivenLiving_Module2.pdfBrene Brown values list: https://brenebrown.com/resources/dare-to-lead-list-of-values/👉Get on the waitlist for our new 10 steps to food freedom audio course
More From Leah:
📚Download your free Intuitive Eating Starter PackApply to The Embodied Method, my 1:1 coaching programJoin my self-paced course...👰 You Don’t Have to Change Your Body for Your Wedding
In this episode, Leah shares how diet culture sneaks into the wedding industry—from “bridal bootcamps” to being asked about “weight goals” at dress fittings—and how these pressures can rob us of joy on one of life’s most meaningful days. Through her own wedding dress shopping story and reflections from clients, Leah explores what it actually looks like to reject body shame, hold space for body grief, and choose presence over perfection.
More From Leah:
📚Download your free Intuitive Eating Starter PackApply to The Embodied Method, my 1:1 coaching programJoin my self-paced course, The ReturnSubscri...🤖 Is Chat GPT Making Intuitive Eating Harder?
In this episode we’re talking about why I’m worried that Chat GPT might be making intuitive eating harder for people.
👉Get on the waitlist for our new 10 steps to food freedom audio course
More From Leah:
📚Download your free Intuitive Eating Starter PackApply to The Embodied Method, my 1:1 coaching programJoin my self-paced course, The ReturnSubscribe to Leah's Youtube ChannelSubscribe to my personal SubstackFollow me on Instagram for more intuitive eating content @leahkern.rdVisit my website to learn more about my coaching offeringsSubscribe to my weekly newsletter to get a nugget of intuiti...📚 5 Studies That Will Change Everything You Believe About Food
This episode will walk you through five powerful studies that challenge diet culture and reshape the way we think about food.
These studies highlight how health is influenced by connection, compassion, satisfaction, and beliefs — not just calories or nutrients.
I cover:
The Rabbit Study and how kindness can influence health outcomesThe Roseto Effect and the role of community in protecting heart healthResearch on Thai vs. Swedish women showing that satisfaction impacts nutrient absorptionThe Sugar Drink Study proving that beliefs about food can affect blood sugar levelsMann et al.’s review of long-term dieting outcomes and...📺 The Biggest Loser Documentary— What They Got Right (and What They Got Wrong)
When The Biggest Loser hit TV in the early 2000s, it was a cultural force that shaped how we think about weight, health, and discipline. Now, the new documentary Fit for TV revisits the show’s legacy.
In this episode, I share my reflections on the documentary through the lens of a non-diet dietitian who grew up watching The Biggest Loser.I break down what the documentary actually got right — and where it fell short.
We’ll cover:
The moments that exposed the physical and psychological harms of the show.Where the doc reinforced fatphobi...👉 I Don’t Want to Be Weighed… But They’re Requiring It. Now What?
What happens when your anti-diet values collide with the realities of a weight-obsessed medical system?
In today’s solo episode, I respond to a deeply vulnerable listener story about being required to undergo weight monitoring during pregnancy as a gestational surrogate—after more than a decade of avoiding the scale as part of her healing from disordered eating.
I unpack the emotional toll of being reduced to a number, the grief of not having full autonomy in medical spaces, and how weight stigma is baked into the system.
I explore:
Why mandatory weig...🥾 6 Lessons The Appalachian Trail Taught Me About Intuitive Eating
In this episode, we're covering 6 lessons I learned on the Appalachian Trail that can be applied to Intuitive Eating.
Mentioned in the episode:
Social Determinants of Health & Intuitive Eating blog post📚Download your free Intuitive Eating Starter PackMore from Leah:
📚Download your free Intuitive Eating Starter PackApply to The Embodied Method, my 1:1 coaching programJoin my self-paced course, The ReturnSubscribe to Leah's Youtube ChannelSubscribe to my personal SubstackFollow me on Instagram for more intuitive eating content @leahkern.rdVisit my website to learn more about my coaching offeringsSubscribe to my weekly newsletter to get a...🫠 How To Cope When The Whole World's On Ozempic
In this episode, we revisit the topic of GLP-1 medications like Ozempic.
You’ll hear from 7 guests: therapists, dietitians, former clients, and people who’ve personally used GLP-1s
Each person shares how they’re navigating intuitive eating and body acceptance in a culture obsessed with weight loss.
This episode features several guests who have already appeared on the show. Here are links to their original episodes:
Jamie’s Episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/il/podcast/lived-experience-with-ozempic-jamies-story-an/id1616910063?i=1000617648346Aaron’s Episode: https://leahkernrd.com/masculinity-body-image-and-disordered-eating-with-aaron-flores-rd/Kate’s Episode: https://leahkernrd.com/raising-intui...🔎 How to Use a Nutrition Label as an Intuitive Eater
In this episode, we’re reclaiming nutrition facts from the clutches of food rules and fear. You’ll learn how to approach a nutrition label without spiraling into judgment or rigid thinking—and how these labels can actually support you in honoring your body’s needs.
We cover:
Why serving sizes are often arbitrary (and not worth stressing over)How to assess if a food will be satisfying and sustaining—beyond just caloriesWhat to do when a meal leaves you hungry an hour later (hint: it’s probably missing fat)Why “high calorie” isn’t a bad thing—and how...🍒 Being Messy, Self-Compassion, & Values Alignment with Abbie Attwood
In this episode, Abbie Attwood, a non-diet, weight-inclusive provider, joins us to talk about:
How struggling with anxiety led her into disordered eatingThe role of being a competitive runner Social justice as a motivating force for recoveryWhy self-compassion won't make you "lazy"The messiness of being humanMentioned in the Episode:
📚Download your free Intuitive Eating Starter PackLeah episode on Abbie's podcast Are The Intuitive Eating Dietitians Alright?More From Abbie:
Abbie's WebsiteAbbie's SubstackMore From Leah:
📚Download your free Intuitive Eating Starter PackApply to The Embodied...🌵7 Unpopular Takes on Intuitive Eating & Body Image
Tune in to hear 7 of my unpopular takes as an intuitive eating dietitian.
Resources mentioned:
How IE impacts metabolism and digestionYou're not wrong for desiring intentional weight lossRachel Hartley Episode on Gentle NutritionMore From Leah:
Apply to The Embodied Method, my 1:1 coaching programJoin my self-paced course, The ReturnSubscribe to Leah's Youtube ChannelSubscribe to my personal SubstackFollow me on Instagram for more intuitive eating content @leahkern.rdVisit my website to learn more about my coaching offeringsSubscribe to my weekly newsletter to get a nugget of intuitive eating inspiration delivered straight fro...⚠️ Beware of Mental Restriction
In this episode we’ll explore whether you’re ACTUALLY giving yourself permission, or if you’re still mentally restricting...
We’ll cover:
mental restriction versus physical restrictionHow this manifests (client stories, personal stories, Alex o)Sneaky ways mental restriction can show upHow to move past mental restrictionMore From Leah:
Apply to The Embodied Method, my 1:1 coaching programJoin my self-paced course, The ReturnSubscribe to Leah's Youtube ChannelSubscribe to my personal SubstackFollow me on Instagram for more intuitive eating content @leahkern.rdVisit my website to learn more about my coaching offeringsSubscribe to my weekl...🫠 When Clothes Don’t Fit & You Feel Like a Failure
In this episode, we unpack why seasonal wardrobe changes can trigger body shame, how to navigate the grief that comes with body changes, and tools to meet yourself with more compassion (and way less spiraling).
More specifically, we’ll explore:
Why the seasonal wardrobe switch can trigger body image distressA 6-step framework to navigate clothing that no longer fitsReal-life client tools for reframing body shamePractical tips to make the process less overwhelmingSupportive mindset shifts and grief validationGentle reframe phrases you can actually believeResources Mentioned:
Anti-Diet Media List: https://leahkernrd.ka...🗣️ Finding Your Food Voice & PCOS with Julie Dillon
In this episode, I'm joined by eating disorder dietitian, podcaster, speaker, and writer, Julie Dillon.
Julie's food and body story The origin of "finding your food voice"The 3 universal qualities of a food voice "Dear Food" letters and the value of personifying foodWhy weight loss won't "cure" PCOS Evidenced-based treatments for PCOSResources Mentioned:
Episode mentioning how research is just one way of knowing with Dr. Lizzy PopeMore From Leah:
Apply to The Embodied Method, my 1:1 coaching programJoin my self-paced course, The ReturnSubscribe to Leah's Youtube ChannelSubscribe to my pers...🎨 12 Reflections From 12 Months Off Instagram
In this episode I’m covering::
12 reflections from 12 months off InstagramHow leaving IG relates to intuitive eating workThe many similarities between social media and diet cultureResources Mentioned:
Why I’m leaving InstagramAre The Intuitive Eating Dietitians Alright? My Episode on Off The GridMore From Leah:
Download your free Intuitive Eating Starter PackApply to The Embodied Method, my 1:1 coaching programJoin my self-paced course, The ReturnSubscribe to Leah's Youtube ChannelSubscribe to my personal SubstackVisit my website to learn more about my coaching offeringsSubscribe to my weekly newsletter to get a nugget...