Songwriters on Process

It's not often (ever?) that I get to talk Hegel, Jung, and Goethe with songwriters. But Dragos Chiriac of Men I Trust and I go deep into philosophy in this episode. I am a huge fan of the band and enjoyed our discussion immensely as we discuss the impact these writers have on Chiriac and why he returns to them over and over.

Lest you think this episode was all about existential angst, we also discussed the relatively simple reason why the band wrote my favorite Men I Trust song "Billie Toppy."

"The failure is not in writing a bad song. The failure is in writing no song." 

Keenan O'Meara has always honored the value of work. Maybe it's because he's also a carpenter by trade, but discipline is his asset even though it's not something that comes naturally. "You have to teach yourself how to work. We've been tricked by the idea of divine inspiration for far too long," he told me. Carpentry has been a boon to his process. "It's great for songwriting. If you ever find yourself out of songwriting ideas, get a carpentry gig." I h...

Jason Newsted blends words and acrylics. Literally. The former Metallica bassist and leader of Jason Newsted and the Chophouse Band is also an accomplished painter, and to get started he'll often write song lyrics (not his own) on a blank canvas, then paint over them. The lyrics serve as a way to stimulate his creative process as his brush strokes move over the words and mix. Newsted gives me a great example of how he recently did this with a Jim Croce song. 

This episode is a deep discussion about the creative process and what drives us t...

I'd like to call myself an OG Widowspeak fan, as I told Molly Hamilton. I saw them when they opened for 2:54 back in 2011 or 2012 on their first tour, and I became an instant fan.  Hamilton and I go deep into the songwriting process, including how jobs outside of songwriting can be a boon for creativity--in Hamilton's case it's the food industry, and in her husband Robert Earl Thomas's case it's carpentry--and how becoming a new parent changes, well, everything when you're a two-person band and you're married.

The latest Widowspeak album is Roses. 

"Hard work is important, and it feels good. My family put a lot of stake into working hard, so it's been ingrained in me," Nick Allbrook of Pond told me. We did this interview at 6:30am his time, so that's all you need to know about his discipline. 

But hard work means nothing if you're not attuned to your environment. Allbrook has that covered too: "You miss out on all of life's beautiful moments and forget that you're a writer if you're always staring at your phone. Once you put it down, inspiration is everywhere." 

Po...

Go Dawgs! Loved having the Athens-bred Futurebirds on the pod. They're no longer college students at the University of Georgia, of course, but as longtime friends and bandmates they've evolved from students to family men. As you'll hear, their songwriting processes have evolved accordingly.

The latest album by Futurebirds is Far Out Country. 

"If I could sum up my process, it would be this: finish everything," says Ben Gibbard of Death Cab for Cutie. "I finish every song I start even if I know in the first verse that it’s a complete pile of shit. I finish it because there might be a lyrical idea or a theme in the third verse or the chorus or the bridge that I can use somewhere else."

Unsurprisingly, Gibbard calls himself a "completionist." He finishes every song he starts writing, every book he begins reading. It's no mystery why he's so prolific, of...

Greg Mendez has a shelved album concept that he says you can have if you're a songwriter. The plan was to center each song around the rhythm of a different car's turn signal, and the title of the song would simply be the car's name (so "2003 Honda Accord," for example.) It never came to fruition of course, but it illustrates Mendez's hyperfocus on his environment as he mines for song ideas. 

Mendez's latest album is Beauty Land.

The formula is simple. Step one, read great Irish literature. Step two, write killer songs. It's worked pretty well for Euan Manning of Cardinals so far. The Irish songwriter for the Cork-based band rattles off writers who have influenced him, and my god does he have impeccable taste: Flann O'Brien, Martin McDonagh, Kevin Barry, among others. As I always say, a clear through line travels from reading great writing to writing great words. 

The debut album by Cardinals is Masquerade.

"A great way to write is to overwrite. Write more verses than could be contained in a song. Then take the best of what's there," says Rostam Batmanglij. I cannot agree more: good writers know that the first pass is never the time to decide what to keep and what to leave out. Overwriting will always be faster. Just ask Anne Lamott.

Of course, overwriting for Rostam comes easy because when he's not writing, he's thinking about writing. "I'm always collecting building blocks," he says. "Lots of kernels all the time. I've never truly let go of...

"When I'm not self-conscious, I tend to write better stuff. I need the dud sessions before I make progress," says Emma Jansson of Girl Scout. Good writing in the initial stages is indeed all about getting out of your own way and applying the Anne Lamott method. And it's why Jansson often starts her writing process with a pen and paper instead of a keyboard because, as she explains, "I don't edit as much when I use pen and paper. I respect the initial thought more."

Girl Scout's debut album Brink is out now.

"We should see how many disco records were made in the winter," Kevin Drew of Broken Social Scene said. And with that, we ventured into the intersection of songwriting and meteorology: how weather patterns and temperature affect the creative mind. 

The Canadian songwriters I've interviewed tend to be seasonal writers. Many tend to write more during the winter, when they're likely to be holed up inside. Drew and I even dared start a new east coast vs. west coast feud as we pondered whether east coast writers are more productive because their seasons are more defined. But r...

Jena Malone had me at the poet Edna St. Vincent Millay. When the actor/songwriter started our discussion talking about Millay and the profound effect poetry has on her songwriting process, I swooned. There’s a theme here: I’ve had a lot of actor/songwriters on the pod recently (Maya Hawke, Sasha Spielberg, The Wolff Brothers) and it’s not surprising that, given their other day jobs when they’re not singing, language is particularly important in their songwriting process. 

Malone is also a parent, and we discuss the role that motherhood plays in her songwriting process...

All you need to know about Maya Hawke's dedication to wordcraft is summed up in this memory: "The day I fell in love with my husband was the day we got into a fight about free verse poetry versus formal poetry." (Hawke's husband is singer/songwriter Christian Lee Hutson, whom I interviewed last year.)

Hawke is of course an actor (Stranger Things, Inside Out 2, among others) and a visual artist, but she's really a poet, first and foremost. Rarely have I encountered a songwriter with such passion for the literary artistry of the words on the page...

As a bilingual artist, Lolo Zouaï uses both English and French on her new album Reverie. Sometimes it's because the meaning of a word in one language is more precise for the song, while other times the sound of the word fits the melody better. We take a deep dive into Zouaï's songwriting process and discuss why she's not good at late-night writing sessions, why the bathroom is a great place to get rid of writer's block, and why she's much more productive when working on many things at once.

Donovan Woods is the master of the pull quote when it comes to the songwriting process. His words are wise counsel for any songwriter. To wit: "A good song asks questions rather than provides wisdom," and "When I have writer's block, it's because I'm not reading enough."

I'll quibble slightly with the latter quote only because I cannot imagine Woods getting writer's block: the last three minutes of this episode are nothing but Woods listing all the authors who inspire him. And that includes the iconic poet Paul Muldoon, a recent guest on this show whom Woods...

I wasn't surprised when Sasha Spielberg--an actor, visual artist, and musician who records as Buzzy Lee--told me that she once cried listening to the score to E.T., one of her father's most famous movies. I was surprised, however, when she told me that she also cried watching "The Real Housewives of Orange County." But that's why this convo with Spielberg is one of the funnest I've ever done. (And yes, funnest is a word.) As you'll hear, both events are tied to her creative process.

I've interviewed many songwriters with careers in other artistic mediums (Jeff...

Morgan Nagler has co-written with HAIM, Phoebe Bridgers, Kim Deal, Madi Diaz, and Margo Price among others. And now comes her fantastic debut solo album I've Got Nothing to Lose, and I'm Losing It. We go deep into her songwriting process on the pod, including a discussion of why physical movement is so important to the creative process.

My New Band Believe is Cameron Picton's new band after his time as the bassist and sometimes frontman for black midi. We go deep into his songwriting process, including a discussion of how sounds outside the studio affect his songwriting. 

My New Band Believe's self-titled debut is on Rough Trade Records.

It's the return of Carl Newman of The New Pornographers! We were just kids back in 2015 when I first interviewed Newman and we discussed his love of the 10cc song "Dreadlock Holiday." We return to that song in this episode, and we span the entirety of Newman's songwriting process, including a great discussion of why writing badly is so important and why gibberish is a great way to jump start the process.

The New Pornographers' latest album is The Former Site Of  on Merge Records.

"I'm a jacket man," King Tuff (aka Kyle Thomas) told me as we discussed why feeling good is important to the songwriting process. I had mentioned a writer who told me that he must wear a winter coat when he writes--even during the Washington, DC summers where he lives. This is not a complicated idea: if we're in a good headspace, we're more likely to be productive and write good songs. "I want to feel like I'm sparkling and then want the songs to feel like treasure, like candy," Thomas says.

But touch is not the only...

"I very much consider myself a writer," Lindsey Jordan (Snail Mail) says. And any good writer has a ritual. Part of Jordan's ritual involves the balance between keeping the writing process precious and recognizing that too much preciousness can create a rut. Regardless, Jordan's love of reading (and poetry!) makes her one hell of a lyricist. 

Snail Mail's latest album is Ricochet.

Nate Ruess's songwriting catalog includes his Grammy winning band Fun; his co-write and co-performance with P!nk on "Just Give Me a Reason"; and songs for Hayley Williams, Kesha, and Young Thug. After feeling no urge to write for ten years, he's back with the first new material in twenty years for his band The Format.  Their new album is Boycott Heaven. And as you'll hear, nothing gets Ruess in the songwriting groove quite like a good, long run along the beach. 

Procrastinators unite! Thank you, Tyler Ballgame, you are a kindred spirit. Finally someone who admits that procrastination is a great tool for writing. So much has been written on the evils of procrastination, yet some people achieve peak efficiency only when they're under pressure. 

But sleep works for Ballgame too: as you'll hear, some of his best songs started as dreams. And his ideal state of mind for songwriting is what he calls "mindlessness."

Tyler Ballgame's debut album is For the First Time, Again on Rough Trade Records.

“When I go to the grocery store, that’s part of the songwriting process. When I work on my truck, that’s part of my songwriting process. Every aspect of our life feeds into our creativity. The more present I can be, the better the songs,” says Buck Meek. 

Meek, the guitarist in Big Thief, is the first songwriter to discuss how “fluid dynamics” impact his songwriting. The ocean—with its waves, shifting sand, temperature fluctuation, and changing tides—inspires him because these shifting elements mirror his creative process. And when Meek towels off, getting started is usually easy beca...

Jade Long and Jessica Thompson of Athens, Georgia based Hotel Fiction have a simple routine for their songwriting sessions: make some brownies, pour some wine. And they like to be outside. It's not complicated. 

But while food, drink, and the outdoors are all common sources of inspiration for songwriters, one element of the Hotel Fiction writing process is unique. When they're outside, they often prefer the top of a parking deck on the University of Georgia's campus. (Long and Thompson are both UGA alums.)

I've been a big Hotel Fiction fan ever since discovering them o...

Nat and Alex Wolff had me at Sam Shepard. The playwright/writer/actor was one of my dissertation topics and the brothers acted in his plays, so we agreed early on that he's one of our favorite writers.  (After you listen, please read Shepard's Pulitzer Prize winning play Buried Child.) 

I’ve interviewed other actors who are also songwriters, and as you’ll hear, all channel their stage experience when they write songs. The Wolff brothers call these elements “artistic nutrients”: all the things we ingest that help us hone our craft. 

As an aside, this could’...

Patton Magee of The Nude Party has the best reason why reading makes you a better songwriter: it gives you a stronger and more wide-ranging vocabulary, which in turn gives you more ways to express yourself. "Words that you rarely use are a lot more fun to play around with," he says on the pod. This reminds me of one of my favorite lines in William Zinsser's book On Writing Well, when he says that if a word comes too easily to you, don't use it because it's probably overused.

The Nude Party's new album is Look W...

"I am a taskmaster," Courtney Marie Andrews told me. When we talked back in 2018, I marveled at Andrews' discipline. She calls it "chunk writing": Andrews doesn't write on tour but instead collects notes and ideas while she's there. Then, when she's home, she blocks off chunks of time on her calendar and does nothing but write.

This discipline makes for prolificness: besides being a fantastic songwriter, Andrews is a published poet and a visual artist. And as you'll hear, it all has to go in a green journal. 

Andrews's latest album is Valentine. 

"To write about something sad and dark, I need to feel content, to feel a sense of well being. I can't write when I'm depressed," Lucinda Williams told me. 

Much of my discussion with Williams focused on how we prepare to write. By her own admission, she's obsessed with paper. "I could spend hours in an office supply store," says Williams. A comfortable chair is necessary too, but not too comfortable because, well, it's easy to fall asleep in a deep chair. And coffee is important, not necessarily because of the caffeine but because of the nostalgic e...

"I've been very happy lately, and that's worrying," KT Tunstall told me. "It's much easier to write sad songs than happy songs. Happiness makes you want to be present, but pain makes you want to escape. And music has always been a way for me to get out."

Tunstall is adamant about not writing every day. "I love doing nothing, so mindless puttering is especially effective. When she finally sits down, she has rules: no blue pens, and the paper has to be unlined. Why unlined? Because she hates being told what to do, and lined paper...

Why do so many of us feel the need to clean our space before we create? Melody Prochet (aka Melody's Echo Chamber) and I discuss why it's important to our respective writing processes. When she's not writing in that nice and tiny space, she's walking along the water, another important element to her songwriting. 

The latest album by Melody's Echo Chamber is called Unclouded.

"Pants delivery was my eureka moment," Julien Ehrlich of Whitney says on the pod, and with that we have my favorite out-of-context pull quote. 

Ehrlich was not speaking metaphorically: when he and bandmate Max Kakacek were writing Whitney's first album, he drove a clothing delivery van that had no working radio. The monotonous drives were great sources of inspiration. Kakacek, on the other hand, was a competitive swimmer until he turned 18. Swimming endless laps staring at the bottom of the pool was a boon to his creative process. Kakacek runs now, where the monotony takes on a n...

“I’m a ‘go in phases’ type of gal. It took me a year and a half to write this record, but it came in blocks,” Gatlin says. It’s how she manages her routine in those blocks that makes her songwriting process so fascinating. Gatlin is most effective between 3pm and 5pm, and thanks to a typing class she took as a child, she can type those lyrics at 95 words per minute. She finds walks to be particularly inspiring for lyrics, but when she’s with her guitar, Gatlin sits cross-legged and gently rocks back and forth as a way to focus...

"I made a conscious effort on this album to be more disciplined in my writing because my ideas were getting stale and I was writing from the same place," Mariel Buckley told me. "I realized that my material was becoming repetitive when I was waiting for inspiration to strike." 

Buckley's new process involved writing every day and writing from a more joyful place. The result is her fantastic new album Strange Trip Ahead. 

Etta Friedman and Allegra Weingarten of Momma return! Momma is my favorite band and their new album Welcome to My Blue Sky is my favorite album of 2025. At least I'm consistent since I said the same thing about them when they were on the pod in 2023. (Their live show is absolutely killer too.)

Friedman and Weingarten have been writing together since their teens, and one thing hasn't changed over the years: they still write most of their songs in Etta's bedroom. But as you'll hear, there are exceptions. Weingarten wrote the riff to "Medicine" in the shower...

"I'm a professional daydreamer," Conor Oberst of Bright Eyes told me. That's the catch-22: are you really daydreaming if you're aware that you're doing it? Daydreaming leads to eureka moments, but only when you don't sit down and say, "I'm going to daydream." As with most people, the eureka moments for Oberst involve mundane activities for a practical reason: no one interrupts him when he's doing the dishes or cleaning a room. 

The perfect daydream for Oberst involves looking out a window when he's in motion and things are going by. When Oberst writes, he uses both s...

"I get a physical tingling sensation. It's beyond my control, an impulsive feeling where I have to sit and wait for it," Billie Marten says about that moment before a wave of inspiration strikes. The problem, Marten told me, is that it's been a while since she's written anything.

But as we soon realized, Marten has been writing a lot: she pulled out her Notes app and scrolled through all the freewriting and thoughts she's written over the past year. "Look at this," she says. "I haven't written anything, but I've written something every day." Good writers...

"I allow myself to miss the guitar. And the guitar comes calling when I start to feel bored," says William Prince. A multiple JUNO award-winner, Prince is also a member of Peguis First Nation in Manitoba, Canada, writing often about his experience as a member. Prince finds long drives to be productive--and those long drives in Canada are common. "So many voice memos happen on those long drives from Calgary  to Vancouver or Winnipeg to Calgary. I’m always trying to recreate the language then."

William Prince's latest album is Further From the Country 

"It's important to separate my sense of self-worth from my creations. If I was so self-aware of my output, I don't think I'd be having fun," Melina Duterte, who goes by the performing name Jay Som, told me. She says that output is proportional to her introspection: "How much I express through music depends on how much work I've been doing on myself," she says. And there's no better place for Duterte's introspection than at her kitchen sink, doing the dishes. 

Jay Som's latest album is Belong on Polyvinyl Records.