School of War

Napoleon Bonaparte’s troops adored him. His generals, meanwhile, were another story. In his new book, Napoleon and His Marshals, Lord Andrew Roberts details the lives of the 26 marshals who conquered Europe—and the micromanaging boss who couldn’t stop undermining them. Roberts joins Aaron MacLean to explore the military genius, rivalries, and leadership failures that shaped Napoleon’s empire, before turning to the recent unrest in France, rising political extremism, and the country’s uncertain political future.

02:29 – The French Army Before Napoleon 04:17 – The French Revolution and Napoleon's Rise 02:29 – The French Army Before Napoleon
04:17 – The French Revolution and Nap...

Yuval Levin ranks AI among the most important political questions facing the country, one with “no left and right.” Just last week, the midterms saw voters push back against artificial intelligence in a series of referenda—but the question of its place in American life is far from settled. Today, Levin joins School of War to discuss what he learned during a recent visit to Anthropic, how the debate over AI defies traditional left-right political divisions, and how the technology threatens the development of the next generation of American leaders, including within the military. 

02:05 AI and...

Is it a plane or a helicopter? The MV-22 Osprey has features from both, but that’s not what makes it one of the most controversial aircraft in the American military. Its history of deadly crashes has earned it a reputation as a dangerous machine, but former Marine Corps pilot Bubba Scott takes a different view Today, Scott joins School of War to explain why he believes the Osprey is “unfairly maligned,” what makes it so revolutionary, why the Marine Corps depends on it, and what it takes to fly one of the most demanding aircraft in military aviation. From a...

Reporting from northern Israel, Aaron sits down with two unidentified Israeli army officers and Druze community leader Tamir Murad to explore the threats facing the country’s northern frontier. From drones changing the battlefield to the plight of Syria’s Druze, their conversations reveal how closely war touches everyday life. As one Israeli army officer puts it, “There’s no distance between the front line and home. Home is the front line.”

01:10 — Tamir Morad on Israel’s Druze

02:50 — Four generations of service

07:28 — October 7

11:02 — Hezbollah rockets and tunnels

13:55 — Majdal Shams and Druze identity

Will Iran cost Republicans the midterms? What happens when half of the GOP turns against Israel? Middle East expert Mike Doran returns to School of War for a wide-ranging discussion of these questions as the midterms threaten to widen divisions on the American right over foreign policy. Taking aim at Tucker Carlson’s influence, Doran argues that the consequences of this divide reach far beyond Israel: “It sets us against ourselves, Americans against Americans, conservatives against conservatives.” He and Aaron MacLean explore the stakes of another escalation with Iran and when it might unfold, the future of America’s alliance...

“It feels like an election where the nature of the country, the future of this foundational ethos of solidarity, is at stake,” says Haviv Rettig Gur. The Free Press Middle East analyst and host of Ask Haviv Anything joins Aaron MacLean in Jerusalem to explore the history behind the election’s deepest divisions. From Zionism’s origins as a rescue project to the military service that shapes its leaders, Gur explains the shared responsibility that built Israel—and why Israelis fear it is unraveling. What does Benjamin Netanyahu offer voters that his opponents don’t? And can a country united again...

Sweden joined NATO in 2024. What took them so long? Historian Johan Wennström, author of The Stay Behinds: Sweden’s Cold War Guardians, joins Aaron MacLean to uncover how Sweden secretly collaborated with NATO for decades while remaining publicly neutral for fear the Soviet Union would invade Finland if they did. With Russia threatening Europe again, Wennström discusses the history of Sweden’s balancing act, how it built an army of sleeper cells, and whether NATO membership risks giving countries a false sense of security.

03:13 The Soviet Threat

08:00 Was Sweden Neutral?

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Russia is losing ground in eastern Ukraine and suffering mounting casualties. So why is the White House handing Vladimir Putin a lifeline? Retired Australian Army major general Mick Ryan, author of the newsletter Futura Doctrina, joins Aaron MacLean to examine the links between the Iran war and Ukraine, and explains why Ukraine’s battlefield successes aren’t translating into political advantage. Putin’s best hope, Ryan argues, is getting Donald Trump on his side: “He’s tried everything else and it hasn’t worked.” Could Washington give Putin what his army can’t?

03:07 Ukraine and Iran

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During the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese Communist Party purged Xi Jinping’s father and subjected him to 16 years of persecution and imprisonment—so how did the current president of China emerge more devoted to the party than ever? “It’s like a comic book villain origin story,” says Aaron MacLean. Today, Joseph Torigian, senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and author of The Party’s Interests Come First: The Life of Xi Zhongxun, Father of Xi Jinping, joins School of War to explore the strange and dark story of China’s current president, the brutality of Mao’s China, and how...

In the Baltics, war with Russia is no abstraction. Putin could take Lithuania’s capital if he achieved surprise, the nation’s army commander told Aaron MacLean. This week, Aaron travels through Lithuania and Latvia to speak with Brigadier General Nerijus Stankevičius, Lithuanian defense Minister Robertas Kaunas, and Latvian foreign minister Baiba Braže about why Lithuania is amending its constitution to allow weapons of mass destruction on its soil, what schoolchildren are learning in their war-preparedness exercises, and what each country is doing now to make sure they’re ready if war comes. 

02:58 —...

America is running low on munitions, its shipyards can’t keep pace, and the materials its weapons depend on too often run through China. Michael Cadenazzi is the Pentagon official charged with turning that around, putting billions of dollars behind the factories, materials, and supply chains that make America’s military power possible. He joins School of War to explain how the Pentagon plans to ramp up weapons production, attract private investment, and break decades of bad habits in how the Pentagon does business. Cadenazzi is confident America can still mobilize its industrial might for a major war, but he w...

A young researcher in Siberia has died under mysterious circumstances, raising questions about a potential lab leak. Russia won’t say how it happened. Marshall Billingslea, former Special Presidential Envoy for Arms Control, says Moscow has scrubbed news reports, had officials walk back talk of an outbreak, and kept the World Health Organization in the dark. He joins School of War to fill in what the Kremlin won’t, taking us inside Russia’s expanding bioweapons program and the institute at the heart of the mystery, which defectors say ran a covert effort to weaponize the disease and make it res...

Three years after October 7, the deadliest terror attack in Israeli history looms large over the Jewish state’s upcoming election. Former Israeli ambassador to the U.S. Michael Oren says whomever takes the helm next is unlikely to “remove a single soldier from Lebanon, from Gaza, from Syria.” Today, Oren joins School of War to discuss Israel’s “80 percent” consensus on national security, why he thinks Hezbollah “cannot be destroyed militarily,” and the deepening political divide between religious Zionists and ultra-Orthodox Jews over the Jewish state’s future. 

3:33 How October 7 Changed Israel

8:54 The Ultra-Orthodox...

How do you fight a superpower you can’t afford to stop trading with? The Dutch faced that problem at the start of the 17th century in their war against Spain, and their answer was the Dutch West India Company, a business built to wage war. Alexander Bick, a historian who served on the National Security Council under Barack Obama and Joe Biden, joins School of War to discuss his new book, Minutes of Empire. He explains how the company helped secure Dutch independence and why the Dutch kept trading with Spain while fighting it, taxing certain exports to “plow...

“Let’s whisper it,” said historian Simon Sebag Montefiore. “The Trump blockade is working.” It can be hard to parse the state of play in the Middle East amid escalating rhetoric, but history gives us the necessary perspective to call balls and strikes in the present day. Today, the author of The Cauldron: The Making of the Modern Middle East joins School of War to discuss the forces that created the modern Middle East, why he thinks Trump’s strategy in Iran is working, and the growing rivalry between Israel and Turkey. “There is a real danger that Erdoğan will talk hi...

If America wants to defend Taiwan’s sovereignty, it needs to build more warships. China currently dominates global shipbuilding—producing vessels at a scale the United States can no longer match. Alex Wong, an executive at South Korean shipbuilding giant Hanwha Group and a former Trump administration national security adviser, thinks he has the solution. Today, Wong joins Aaron MacLean to discuss how the United States lost its shipbuilding capacity, how South Korean technology and investment could help revive American shipyards, and what it will take to rebuild the country’s naval industrial base. “America doesn’t have 20 years” to regain it...

Could Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey form a “Muslim NATO?” Pakistan has the nuclear arsenal, Saudi Arabia has the wealth, and Turkey has the NATO-trained military—“you put these three together and it becomes a pretty formidable force,” says CBS News senior foreign correspondent Imtiaz Tyab. Today, he joins School of War to discuss whether the pact could really become an effective alliance, what the effort reveals about America’s changing role in the Middle East, and what five years of Taliban rule have meant for Afghanistan: “I’ve never seen the Taliban more confident,” he said.

02:14 — Reporting From Afgha...

John Boyd was one of the most influential military thinkers of the 20th century, and the intellectual godfather of the U.S. Marines’ military strategy. Today, as artificial intelligence continues to transform battlefields in Ukraine and the Middle East, author and retired Marine officer Ian Brown argues that Boyd’s ideas are more relevant than ever. Today, Brown joins Aaron MacLean to discuss how Ukraine is harnessing Boyd’s concept of narrative warfare, what Boyd can teach us about conflict in the age of AI, drones, and precision strikes, and his new book co-authored with Frans P. B. Osinga, Snowmo...

People think retired Army Major John Spencer lost part of his ear in combat. He didn’t; he lost it in a fight behind a bar that cost him his spot in the Army Rangers. Spencer went on to serve repeatedly in combat and become one of the country’s leading experts on urban warfare. He joins Aaron MacLean to discuss his origin story and other anecdotes from his new book, Twenty Times I Almost Died, as well as why he thinks the U.S. “is clearly winning” the war in Iran.

3:30 War With Iran 9:43 Battle of Hormuz 1...

Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster was on the phone with the Pentagon when the plane struck the building on September 11, 2001. “I thought, Okay, we are going to war,” he recalls. Twenty-five years after 9/11, McMaster joins Aaron MacLean to discuss the wars that followed. Drawing on his experience as a wartime commander and national security adviser, McMaster explains why he considers Afghanistan a self-defeat, how American withdrawal helped enable the rise of ISIS in Iraq, and why he thinks the latest Iran ceasefire was “a big mistake.”

4:39 McMaster on 9/11

7:27 Adapting to Iraq

12:33...

A Chinese hypersonic missile targeting either U.S. coast would leave room for “about 10 minutes of warning time.” Zachary Krevor, CEO of Stratolaunch, is building vehicles to help the Pentagon learn to detect, track, and intercept this threat. Today, Krevor joins School of War to explain how China and Russia have outpaced the U.S. in hypersonic weapons testing, why AI-enabled missile “swarms” may be on the horizon,  and what it will take for America to defend itself against them.

2:32 What Makes a Weapon Hypersonic?

4:47 The Real-Life Top Gun: Maverick

6:14 From Model Airplanes to Hypers...

When it comes to world superpowers, Cambridge historian Brendan Simms argues there are only four that matter—and two of them are fading. Today, Simms joins Aaron MacLean to argue that Britain still belongs among the world’s leading powers; why its place among them is “by no means guaranteed”; and why Hitler is no longer the absolute evil against which people define themselves.

4:08 The Four R’s of Great Power

4:29 Defining Great Power

8:09 Iran’s Regional Power

11:44 The Great Powers Return

15:39 The Cold War

17:44 Euro...

The story of Air Force General David Goldfein, who miraculously survived after his plane was shot down over Serbia in 1999, has since become military legend. Today, he joins School of War to recount the harrowing rescue mission that saved him, how he stayed alive  behind enemy lines, and the lessons his remarkable career offers about leadership, airpower, and preparing America for the next war.

2:43 An Air Force Family

3:25 Rejected by the Air Force Academy

6:39 Becoming an F-16 Pilot

8:12 What Makes a Great Fighter Pilot?

12:36 Information Overload i...

More than 75 years after the Korean War, its lessons endure—and divisions over isolationism and American power continue to shape the discourse around modern global conflicts. Dane J. Cash, historian and author of The Forgotten Debate: The Korean War and the Roots of America's Ideological Divisions, joins School of War to explain how the left’s hawk-dove divide during the Korean War foreshadowed the neoconservative break from the liberal consensus during the 1970s and why the political battles of the early Cold War continue to splinter America today.

2:10 America Before the Korean War

3...

The U.S. military needs more drones, and it needs to build them without Chinese parts. Today, Defense Innovation Unit Deputy Director Travis Metz joins School of War to discuss how America can build drones quickly, cheaply, and on U.S. soil; what America can learn from Ukraine’s drone war; and the Pentagon’s new billion-dollar effort to upgrade its aging military technology.

2:23 - Why America Is Behind on Drones

4:32 - The Drone Dominance Program

6:51 - Breaking Dependence on China

10:23 - The Different Types of Drones

13:34 - Ukraine’s Mid...

In prerevolutionary Russia, it was not uncommon for children to dream of becoming terrorists when they grew up. “It was a respected profession,” says Northwestern University professor Gary Saul Morson, who now sees troubling parallels between modern-day America and an era in Russia when terrorism became fashionable and radicals came to see violence as an expression of moral virtue. Today, Morson joins School of War to discuss what Fyodor Dostoyevsky understood about the terrorist mind, why good people can be persuaded to support terrible acts, and what America loses when it stops teaching the history of communism in schools. 3:09 Amer...

Pennsylvania senator Dave McCormick, a West Point graduate, Desert Storm veteran, and former CEO of Bridgewater Associates, is concerned about America’s wealth gap, which he says is approaching “a version of capitalism I don’t think we want.” Today, McCormick joins School of War for a candid conversation about why the right needs a better answer to socialism, lessons in modern warfare from his recent closed-door meeting with Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelensky, and why he regrets his 2002 LA Times op-ed supporting the Iraq War: “I was completely wrong.”

02:01 — From Desert Storm to Princeton

05:05 — Nine Months Trav...

Is the tank obsolete? As drones and precision strikes transform modern battlefields, some have predicted that armored vehicles may soon meet the fate of the cavalry charge. Today on School of War, Colonel Jose A. Reyes and Lieutenant Colonel David “Cam” Smith of the 1st Cavalry Division make the opposite case. Drawing on their experience operating and commanding tanks, they join Aaron MacLean to explain how armored vehicles are adapting to an increasingly drone-centric battlefield—and why the future of warfare may still belong to the cavalry.

3:18 — Reyes and Smith’s Backgrounds

8:40 — The History...

As war in Ukraine grinds towards its fifth year and tensions strain the transatlantic alliance, former British prime minister Boris Johnson says he remains convinced that the West has the power to prevail: “Putin has got to lose.” Today, Johnson joins School of War to discuss how the West can bring the Russian president to the negotiating table, why Europe’s dream of “strategic autonomy” is a “sham, a snare and a delusion,” and why he believes predictions of American decline and Chinese dominance have it backward.

02:20 — When Boris Johnson Knew Putin Would Invade Ukraine

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As the American right and left are increasingly pulled toward their ideological extremes, many politicians have chosen to appease the loudest voices in their coalitions even when those voices flirt with or openly embrace antisemitism. Senator Ted Cruz says he’s done playing nice. “If we do not defeat this poison,” he warns, “I believe it will consume the Republican Party just like it has consumed the Democratic Party.” Today, Cruz joins School of War to discuss his strategy for bringing down Iran’s regime, what Tucker Carlson’s splinter from the mainstream right means for conservative politics, and the battle he...

Yuri Fedorenko has spent four years turning a volunteer rifle company into the 429th “Achilles” Brigade, one of the most lethal units in Ukraine’s Defense Forces. Today,  he joins School of War to discuss how the battlefield has evolved since Russia’s full-scale invasion: improvising with commercial drones in 2022, scaling a unit that now hunts targets at an unprecedented scale, what life is like on the front lines, and what the U.S. military can learn from his unit’s drone revolution.

This interview was originally conducted in Ukrainian and has been translated and dubbed into English.

For months, it was conventional wisdom among large swaths of the American right that Ukraine would inevitably have to cede its Donbas region to Russia to end the war. Now, with Russian morale flagging, “that assumption is just no longer true,” says Aidan Stretch, a CBS News international reporter based in Kyiv. Today, Stretch joins School of War to discuss the state of play on the battlefield, Laura Loomer’s recent change of heart about the war, and how drone warfare has transformed the very idea of the front line as we know it.

02:36 - Is Ukraine Really...

Mark Montgomery, senior director of the Center on Cyber and Technology Innovation at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies and a retired U.S. Navy rear admiral, returns to School of War to analyze the latest military developments across the world. Why has the Iran war entered such a dangerous and uncertain phase? What role will the Strait of Hormuz and the Red Sea play in its next stage? And what do Iran and Ukraine reveal about the changing shape of global conflict?

02:22 - Why the Iran War Suddenly Paused

04:44 - An...

Ben Milligan, a former U.S. Navy SEAL, Bronze Star recipient, and author of By Water Beneath the Walls: The Rise of the Navy SEALs, joins School of War to discuss the origins and evolution of one of America's most storied special operations forces. How did the Navy SEALs grow out of the Underwater Demolition Teams of World War II? What does it take to become a SEAL? How did the Vietnam War shape the institution into the force we know today? And what role should the SEALs play as the U.S. military shifts its focus from the...

Jonathan Swan, a White House reporter for The New York Times, joins School of War to discuss the reporting behind his new book, Regime Change: Inside the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump, co-authored with Maggie Haberman. How does Donald Trump make geopolitical decisions? What drove him to join Israel’s war against Iran? How has his thinking on Ukraine evolved? And how does China fit into all of this?

02:23 - Inside Regime Change

05:29 - Trump's View of the World

09:04 - Why Trump Sees Iran Differently

11:25 - Trump's Proxy Strategy

12:44...

James Diggle, emeritus professor of Greek and Latin at Cambridge University, and John Underhill, professor of geoscience and energy transition at the University of Aberdeen, join School of War to discuss their decades-long search for the real Ithaca of Homer’s Odyssey. Based on their recent Antigone journal article, “In Search of Ithaca,” they explain why the island we’ve called Ithaca for centuries may actually be the wrong one. Can modern geology solve a 3,000-year-old mystery? Have we finally found the true home of Odysseus? And what would that mean for one of the greatest stories ever told?

02...

Mike Doran, senior fellow and director of the Center for Peace and Security in the Middle East at the Hudson Institute, returns to School of War to examine why the war with Iran continues despite devastating military setbacks for Tehran. Is President Trump’s Iran strategy truly different from President Obama’s, or are the similarities overstated? What does the fight over the Strait of Hormuz reveal about the limits of American power? And what does this war tell us about the future of U.S. strategy in the Middle East—and its broader competition with China?

01:22 - Reca...

Vance Serchuk, executive director and Partner at the KKR Global Institute, and former senior national security adviser to Senator Joe Lieberman, was uniquely positioned to witness one of the most influential partnerships in modern American foreign policy: the “Three Amigos” of John McCain, Joe Lieberman, and Lindsey Graham. What made their partnership so effective? What vision did they share for America’s role in the world? And what does the end of the “Three Amigos” mean for the future of American foreign policy?

02:21 - Lindsey Graham and the Three Amigos

10:42 - First Impressions of Lindsey Graham

Edward Fishman, senior fellow and director of the Greenberg Center for Geoeconomics at the Council on Foreign Relations, joins School of War to discuss his New York Times best-selling book, Chokepoints: American Power in the Age of Economic Warfare. How has the United States turned the global economy into a strategic weapon? What are the strengths and limits of sanctions? And how are China, Russia, and Iran adapting to a new era of economic warfare?

02:46 - Edward Fishman's background

04:26 - Understanding economic chokepoints

05:35 - The dollar as a strategic chokepoint

07:02...

David, a U.S. military veteran who has been fighting voluntarily alongside Ukrainian forces, joins School of War to discuss how four years on the front lines have transformed modern warfare. How has combat in Ukraine changed since Russia’s 2022 invasion? Why have first-person view drones become the defining weapon of the war? What misconceptions does the West still have about the Russian military? And what lessons must the United States absorb before its next major conflict?

02:49 - David’s military history

05:56 - What brought David to Ukraine

07:37 - Russia's failed invasion of Kyiv...