The Vertical Space

Admiral Phil Kenul spent decades flying NOAA aircraft into some of the most dangerous weather on earth, including multiple seasons as a P-3 Orion hurricane hunter, before transitioning into the world of UAS standards, where he now serves as Vice Chair of ASTM Committee F38. That path gives him a perspective on unmanned aviation that most people in the industry don't have. He's been the guy in the cockpit, the program manager trying to replace the cockpit with a Global Hawk, and now the person writing the standards that determine whether any of this scales commercially.

His...

In this episode we sit down with Alex List, CEO and founder of FlyShirley, a startup building an AI copilot for the cockpit. Alex walks through what AI in aviation actually looks like today: the practical reality of a ground-based language model accessed via iPad helping pilots handle strategic, non-time-critical tasks like looking up service bulletins mid-flight, transcribing ATC clearances, finding alternates, and synthesizing information that would otherwise require a pilot to dig through a POH while managing weather and workload. He's candid about where the technology still falls short and articulates a clear architectural thesis: frontier intelligence lives...

In this episode we reconnect with Robert Rose, CEO of Reliable Robotics, fresh off his testimony before Congress on the state of advanced air mobility. Robert shares what most people misunderstand about FAA certification, i.e. that the regulator isn't there to coach you through it, they're just calling balls and strikes. We explore why Reliable has spent eight years building autonomous systems within existing regulations rather than waiting for new rules, how they've convinced the FAA that zero-visibility automated landing standards can scale from wide-body jets down to Cessna Caravans, and why the "cargo first" narrative that dominates...

In this episode we sit down with Koen De Vos, Secretary General of GUTMA, to unpack why U-Space still feels more aspirational than operational, and what aviation can learn from industries that have at least partially managed to digitize at scale. Drawing on parallels with the automotive sector, Koen explores how green technologies, automation, and system-level thinking could, and should, reshape aviation if the institutional and political pieces ever align.

We dive into why U-Space has not meaningfully materialized in Europe yet, the evolving role of regulators like EASA, and how European and US approaches to UTM...

In this episode, we sit down with Ben Ivers (Boeing’s Director of Emerging Technologies & Regulatory Strategy) to unpack a deceptively simple idea: airspace modernization isn’t optional anymore and the tech to enable “automated flight rules” (AFR) is largely ready today. Ben argues the hard part isn’t the technology, but introducing a new flight mode alongside VFR and IFR that can scale drones, eVTOLs, and future autonomous operations without turning the sky into sanitized corridors reserved for “new entrants.” He explains why Boeing is forced to think in decades and why action now matters if modernization isn’t to remain perp...

Autonomy may scale in agriculture long before it does in defense or UAM, and today’s guest makes a compelling case why. We speak with Edward Barraclough, founder and CEO of Drone-Hand, about applying autonomous drones and on-device AI to the realities of livestock operations across Australia, New Zealand, North America, and beyond.

Edward explains why ranching is the perfect proving ground for autonomy: massive land areas, urgent labor shortages, permissive operating environments, and ROI that’s measured in days - not years. We explore how drones are already replacing helicopters on million-acre cattle stations, why biological data...

In this episode, Delta Air Lines CEO Ed Bastian breaks down what truly differentiates a great airline: people and culture. Ed shares why “take care of your people first” isn’t a slogan (it’s Delta’s operating system!) and how that shows up in reliability, premium customer experience, and everyday leadership. We get a candid look at running a 100,000-person, 5,000-flights-a-day operation; the metrics he checks first (on-time arrivals and cash); and why accessibility and listening are his non-negotiables as a leader.

We also dive into Delta’s broader vision: a connected, premium travel ecosystem that spans free f...

Adam Woodworth, CEO of Wing (Alphabet’s drone delivery company), joins us to talk about making delivery ubiquitous and why drones should be an equal player alongside other delivery methods. Adam argues we’ve already passed the “risk peak” for UAS integration: the industry now has the operational data to validate safety targets, and the safest path is to fly more because drone trips displace riskier car trips. He traces Wing’s journey from Google X to Part 135 air carrier, the shift from “drone company” to “delivery company,” and what’s changed in the last 18 months as regulatory processes became predictable e...

Welcome to episode 101 of The Vertical Space. In this conversation, we sit down with Ryan Gury, Co-founder and CEO of Performance Drone Works (PDW). Ryan argues that “commercial is eating aerospace,” and shows why the center of gravity has shifted from exquisite programs to fast iteration, modular hardware, and drones treated as munitions. We dig into lessons from Ukraine, why precision from a foxhole beats posture from a ridge line and what “velocity + iteration” really means for design, manufacturing, and doctrine.

We also unpack the RF war: proliferated jamming, fiber-tethered ops, directional links and why legacy radio assumpti...

In this 100th episode, we sit down with Chris Hewlett, former Navy Commander and Director of Project Ultra, for a candid conversation about the realities of UAS integration. Chris challenges the industry’s rush toward community-based traffic management and questions whether UTM, as commonly envisioned, can ever deliver safe and scalable integration. He argues instead that the Department of Defense, through rigorous test, evaluation, and rapid operational deployment, will set the standard for comprehensive UAS integration - a framework that will ultimately spill over into commercial use.

We cover the lessons from Project Ultra on verification, validation, an...

In this episode, we welcome back Jia Xu, CEO of SkyGrid, to discuss the future of autonomy and shared airspace. SkyGrid is building a trusted airspace and operational integration platform to enable safe, secure, and efficient autonomous flight.

Jia highlights where the main bottlenecks and complexities exist across autonomy, advanced air mobility, and shared airspace, and how the industry can move forward. We cover regulatory frameworks such as Part 108 and Part 146, the role of data services, and how SkyGrid is positioning its technology and products to help enable safer and more efficient aviation.

Ryan Graves is a former U.S. Navy F/A-18F pilot and the first active-duty pilot to publicly report regular UAP sightings. In this episode, we explore what these encounters reveal about gaps in our airspace sensing and safety infrastructure, and where the opportunities lie for better detection, data analysis, and aerospace innovation. Ryan also shares insights from his work at Americans for Safe Aerospace and AIAA, where he’s helping bring scientific rigor and policy attention to a long-overlooked issue.

In this episode we’re joined by Julie Garland, CEO of Avtrain, for a deep dive into the current state of the drone industry and regulation across Europe. Julie shares her perspective on why societal acceptance is just as critical as regulatory approval. We explore how operators like Manna are working to normalize drone activity and influence regulations, and why simplifying regulatory frameworks, including the SORA process, is essential to enable broader adoption of drone operations.

The conversation also sheds light on the limited number of authorized SAIL III operations across EASA member states and the challenges op...

In this episode, Chad Sweet, co-founder and CEO of ModalAI, joins us to explore the evolving drone landscape and what’s driving the next wave of innovation. Chad shares his perspective on the rising importance of FPV (first-person view) technology - especially in military and public safety applications - and why user experience, including ease of flight and high-quality video streaming, will be a key competitive edge going forward.

We also dive into ModalAI’s strategic partnership with Qualcomm and the company’s focus on developing NDAA-compliant, AI-powered components that enable autonomy and advanced perception in small UAS. Ch...

Drone swarms are no longer science fiction - they're becoming one of the most disruptive technologies on the modern battlefield. In this episode, we speak with Serhii Kupriienko, founder and CEO of Swarmer, a Ukrainian startup building autonomous swarming capabilities for drones operating in the harshest conditions: GPS-denied, communications-jammed, and under fire.

We dive deep into how drone warfare has evolved in Ukraine, the maturation - and limitations - of FPV drone tech, and what true “swarming” really means. Serhii shares lessons from the frontlines of defense innovation, explains why adoption of new technologies can be both urge...

In this episode, we welcome back Brandon Suarez from Reliable Robotics, more than three years after his first appearance. Brandon leads the development of technical standards and global aviation policy, and this return visit offers a valuable perspective on how the aviation industry has evolved, and in some ways, diverged from expectations. The conversation centers on the implementation of automation in aviation and its operational and safety benefits, especially for general aviation. Brandon makes a compelling case that improving safety isn’t just a benefit of automation, it’s a prerequisite for aviation growth. He addresses persistent issues like the...

In this episode we sit down with Dr. Joey Rios, Chief Technologist for the Aviation Systems Division at NASA Ames Research Center, for a discussion on the evolution of Unmanned Aircraft Systems Traffic Management (UTM). Joey takes us through the early days of UTM development, reflecting on the foundational principles, the initial use cases, and how the vision has evolved over time. We dive deep into the challenges of airspace design, the reasoning behind the U.S. federated model, and how it compares to other global approaches. Joey also shares his perspective on current operations, including the Dallas Operational...

Welcome back to The Vertical Space for our second conversation with Richard Aboulafia, an insightful voice on all things aerospace and defense.  This episode dives deeper than ever into the aerospace and defense supply chain: globalization, vulnerabilities, titanium, rare earth elements, and why Tier 1 integrators may be losing their place in the industry. 

We explore how shifting geopolitics, material dependencies, and evolving national strategies are redrawing the map of the aerospace and defense industrial base. Richard breaks down why Europe is accelerating its push for industrial sovereignty, how China’s role in rare earths and Russia's role in t...

In this episode, we sit down with George Mattson, CEO of Wheels Up, for a conversation about leading one of the most recognized brands in private aviation. George shares his perspective on building Wheels Up into an aviation solutions company and what sets their model apart in a competitive industry. With his background on the board of Delta Airlines, he offers a unique lens on integrating commercial and private aviation to create a seamless customer experience.

We explore the current landscape of private aviation, its opportunities, headwinds, and the strategic thinking behind Wheels Up’s direction. George al...

In this episode we sit down with Chris Gentile, General Manager for Tactical Autonomy at Merlin, for an in-depth look at the evolving role of autonomy in defense. Chris outlines the value proposition of autonomy as a tool, not a standalone product, and discusses the principles of a modular, hybrid, and hierarchical architecture design in building robust autonomous systems. We explore how recent milestones in trusted autonomy are reshaping military strategy and capability, and how the technology must evolve alongside certification requirements and operational realities.

Chris also shares his personal journey into the field and offers a...

Welcome back to a conversation with Christian Ramsey, Chief Commercial Officer of uAvionix. Christian last joined us in 2022, and now, almost three years later, we revisit his predictions to see what played out as expected, and what didn’t.

We kick things off with Remote ID: why it was selected, why it has failed to meet expectations, and how prioritizing low-cost implementation led to major performance shortcomings.

Next, we get a masterclass on ADS-B, starting with its origins, benefits, and drawbacks. While ADS-B was expected to revolutionize airspace management, we discuss the objections to its ad...

In this episode, we sit down with Captain Donald Lee Moak, a distinguished aviation leader. With experience spanning military and commercial aviation to boardroom leadership, Lee is known for driving change. He doesn’t just talk about change; he makes it happen.

Our discussion centers on three major themes: the urgent need to modernize and privatize the U.S. air traffic control (ATC) system to enhance safety and efficiency, lessons from aviation’s strong safety record, and the recent rise in incidents that Lee has warned about in op-eds and reports. We also dive into his tenure as p...

In this episode, we sit down with Arnaud Thiercelin, Chief Product Officer at Orqa, for a bold and eye-opening conversation about the present and future of drones and mobile robotics. Arnaud challenges the status quo, urging listeners to think beyond gimmicks and focus on delivering real value to end users. From FPV drones neutralizing M1 Abrams tanks to the West’s struggle to produce a viable DJI competitor, he doesn’t shy away from controversy. He calls out the industry's missteps and offers sharp insights into what it will take to reclaim leadership in drone and robotics innovation.

Be...

In this episode, retired Senior Chief Engineer Carey Cannon shares his 38-year journey at Bell Helicopter, talking about the realities of developing and deploying vertical lift aircraft. He discusses why many eVTOL manufacturers underestimate the time and cost required, why getting in the air is the easy part, and the enduring principles of helicopter design. Carey reflects on key programs like the V280 and EagleEye, the technology gaps he encountered, and the biggest technical and commercial hurdles eVTOLs must overcome. He also explores why traditional helicopter OEMs are cautious about eVTOLs and why few startups will survive the transition...

In this episode we dive into an engaging conversation with Sean Donohue, CEO of Dallas Fort Worth International Airport (DFW). The discussion covers a broad range of topics such as the significant role of travel and tourism in the global economy, the strategies of introducing new technologies in aviation, and the operational priorities of running one of the world's largest airports. Sean provides insights into the complexities of balancing demand and supply in air traffic, his perspective on the privatization of air traffic control and airports, and DFW's extensive capital and technology investments aimed at future-proofing the airport. Additionally...

In this episode, we sit down with Jenn Player, Vice President of Global Aviation Regulatory Affairs at Skydio and a leading voice in the drone industry, for a deep dive into autonomous drone operations. We start by unpacking the concept of electronic conspicuity and its potential to enable a fully cooperative shared airspace. Drawing from her experience flying larger UAS with the Air Force Research Lab and BNSF, Jenn shares why detect-and-avoid challenges in controlled airspace prompted her shift toward smaller, highly automated drones operating close to obstacles - a shift that ultimately led her to Skydio and her...

Welcome to 2025! In this episode, we sit down with Amit Ganjoo, the Founder and CEO of ANRA Technologies, a global leader in UAS Traffic Management (UTM). This conversation explores Amit’s vision for an integrated airspace and the critical steps required to make it a reality. We delve into the role of AI in UTM and ATM, touching on the controversies surrounding its use. Amit shares insights on the differences between the U.S. federated model and the centralized approaches used globally, offering a nuanced perspective on the evolution of UTM.

We also take a deep dive in...

In this episode, we sit down with Bobby Sakaki, an expert in small UAS technology and CEO of UAS Nexus. Bobby shares his insights on the critical role drones play in defense, particularly in light of their impact in Ukraine, and highlights concerns about the lack of a strong and coordinated U.S. and Western industrial base for affordable, competitive drone components. He explores the challenges facing the drone industry, including engineering, supply chain limitations, raising capital, and scaling manufacturing capabilities.

Bobby talks about the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), the Blue UAS program, and MOSA (Modular...

In this episode, we speak with Brian Streem, Founder and CEO of Vermeer, about his journey from film production to pioneering drone technology in Ukraine’s defense ecosystem. Brian shares why he relocated to Kyiv, how he navigates the challenges of building advanced technology in a warzone, and the surprising ways it boosted his credibility with U.S. and European partners. We explore Vermeer’s Visual Positioning System, the competitive drone market, and Brian’s unique approach to solving problems, starting with listening to customers. It’s a candid, insightful discussion you won’t want to miss.

In this episode, we sit down with Joerg Dittrich, a leading expert in drone regulations and one of the minds behind the SORA framework. Joerg shares insights on the evolution of drone integration, the development of the specific drone category, and how safety and risk management shape modern drone operations. We explore topics like air risk assessment, drone delivery, drones in agriculture, UTM, and the transformative potential of drones in complex environments. Tune in for a deep dive into the future of unmanned aviation and the regulatory innovations making it possible.

In this episode we welcome Bob Poole, Director of Transportation Policy and the Searle Freedom Trust Transportation Fellow at the Reason Foundation, who brings his expertise on the complex and often debated topic of airport privatization. We discuss the pros and cons of privatizing airports, examining the potential value to various stakeholders, including government, investors and passengers. As Bob explains, privatization has transformed airports globally, boosting efficiency, revenue potential, and customer service in certain cases. Yet, the U.S. remains an outlier. He explores the reasons why, including unique legal and regulatory constraints, and what the implications might be...

In this episode we’re joined by Montie Brewer, former President and CEO of Air Canada, who provides a glimpse into the airline industry from the vantage point of a major airline leader. Montie draws on his experience as a CEO to share insights into how airlines make decisions about their networks and approach technology adoption. For entrepreneurs hoping to break into this space, Montie offers great advice, explaining how airlines, under the scrutiny of passengers, shareholders, and sustainability goals, make or break the technologies you're developing. He stresses that for airlines, decisions are data-driven and focused on clear re...

In this episode, we dive into the FAA's evolving approach to approving waivers and exemptions for complex drone operations, including beyond visual line of sight (BVLOS), 1:many operations, and broadly airspace integration over the past 18 months. Joining us again is Charlton Evans, a trusted expert in FAA drone regulations, who last appeared on episode #35.

Charlton explains the significant shift in how drone OEMs and operators approach the type certification requirement in the U.S. Traditionally, the process involved going through the FAA's Durability & Reliability (D&R) process, which often took four to five years, as seen with...

Two years ago, we hosted Gen. James Poss to discuss the evolution of drone technologies, their adoption in the U.S. military, and their early use in the war in Ukraine. With significant advancements since then - especially in Ukraine's use of drones - we invited Gen. Poss back to focus on counter-UAS strategies and the concept of attritable mass, including the USAF's major program, the Collaborative Combat Aircraft. We explore various counter-UAS technologies, such as missiles, lasers, drone interceptors, and electronic warfare, in the framework of mobility, survivability, magazine depth and cost per shot considerations.

The...

In this episode of The Vertical Space, we sit down with Kevin Noertker, Co-founder and CEO of Ampaire, to explore the evolving landscape of electric aviation. Kevin shares his perspective on the industry's progress and challenges, particularly in relation to battery development and the delayed timelines for fully electric vehicles. We explore the differences between battery-only and hybrid propulsion, highlighting the advantages and limitations of both technologies. Kevin explains why hybrid propulsion is seeing faster advancements and why it might be the preferred choice for regional air mobility operators. We also discuss the broader implications of electrification on regional...

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Rob Britton, Principal of AirLearn, who brings five decades of experience in commercial aviation. This fascinating conversation covers the history and future of the airline business, the significance of the hub-and-spoke model, the realities of aviation sustainability, and the challenges and opportunities for advanced and regional air mobility. Throughout the discussion, we explore the enduring value of aviation, the power of market forces, and the critical need for innovation, all wrapped in a spirit of prudent optimism. Whether you're in the industry or just passionate about flight, this episode is one...

Welcome back to The Vertical Space! In this episode, we’re thrilled to bring you a conversation with Jeff Luckett, President and founding member of UPS Flight Forward, a subsidiary of UPS. Since our podcast's inception in 2021, we’ve featured numerous OEMs and service providers from both advanced air mobility and traditional aviation. However, it’s not often that we get to hear directly from the buyers and industry leaders driving the demand for these cutting-edge technologies. Today, we dive deep with one of the key figures in the industry.

Jeff shares his journey leading UPS Flight Forwar...

In this episode, we’re excited to host Srdjan Kovacevic, CEO and co-founder of Orqa. Despite a low public profile, this Croatian team has made significant waves, initially through ultra-low latency FPV goggles for drone racing and now by building their own drones through a fully vertically integrated model. This strategy not only optimizes cost and performance but also positions Orqa as a strong Western alternative to DJI.

Srdjan discusses his view that hardware in the small drone industry is far from commoditized, emphasizing its critical role in achieving optimal performance. He traces this misconception to the ea...

Welcome back to The Vertical Space! In this episode, we sit down with Libby Bahat, Head of the Aerial Infrastructure Department of the Israeli Civil Aviation Authority. Join us as we delve into what makes Israeli airspace unique, given its position as one of the most threatened airspaces in the world.

We explore the Israel National Drone Initiative: its origins, surprising initiators, and current results. Learn about the costs of drone operations in Israel compared to other regions, and listen to Libby's "1, 10, 100" concept related to drone profitability.

Discover how drones are used and managed in...

Welcome back to The Vertical Space! In this episode, we reconnect with Bobby Healy, CEO and Founder of Manna Drone Delivery. Bobby returns to discuss how Manna has not only met but exceeded initial expectations over the past two years. He dives deep into the details of Manna's unit economics, revealing how they achieve profitability with every flight, even when delivering a single cup of coffee. 

Bobby provides insights into the evolution of drone delivery over the past two years. He reflects on initial assumptions versus actual outcomes, highlighting pleasant surprises, disappointments, and his vision for the f...