The Covert Narcissism Podcast

In relationships shaped by covert narcissism, “it’s fine” can become the two words you say most, even when nothing is fine at all. At the beginning, a disagreement was just a disagreement. You expect to talk it through, compromise, and find your way back to each other. What you find instead is defensiveness, blame-shifting, circular conversations, and gaslighting. Over time, ordinary disagreements start to feel like threats, and your body responds with fight, flight, freeze, or fawn.

Swallowed emotions cost your body, your voice, and your relationships around you. For anyone in narcissistic abuse recovery, this episod...

What does it really take to leave an abusive marriage when your savings are gone, your credit cards are maxed out, and your body is still in survival mode? In part two of this conversation, Renee continues talking with Liz Tenuto, somatic educator, author of When the Body Speaks: How Somatic Healing Sets You Free, and known to millions as The Workout Witch.

Liz shares how financial control kept her in her marriage for months after she discovered the truth, and what happened when she reached out for couples therapy and a therapist asked if she’d ev...

How someone treats the family dog or cat can tell you a lot about covert narcissism, and it can reveal what you’ve been living with all along. In this episode, Renee Swanson explains how a covert narcissist treats their pets: as supply, as a trophy, as something to control, and sometimes as a pawn in separation and divorce. She shares the story of her German shepherd, whose reactions confirmed what Renee had spent years doubting in herself.

If you’ve been walking on eggshells, wondering whether your reactions were reasonable, this conversation offers validation and a new...

When we think of financial abuse, we usually picture the partner who earns the money and controls every dollar. Liz Tenuto’s story was the opposite. She was working six days a week to support her household while her husband quietly took over her bank accounts, her passwords, and her credit cards.

In this episode, Renee talks with Liz Tenuto, known to millions as The Workout Witch. Liz is a somatic educator and nervous-system practitioner who has taught more than 250,000 people body-based nervous-system regulation, and she’s the author of When the Body Speaks: How Somatic Healing Sets...

What is a narcissist, and why does covert narcissism make real closeness feel impossible, no matter how hard you try? This is part two of a two-part series on the two defining characteristics that destroy relationships with a narcissist. Part one covered the lack of empathy. This week, Renee Swanson turns to the other side of the castle door: the lack of vulnerability.

Real vulnerability means saying “I was wrong,” “I’m afraid,” “I don’t know,” or “I need you.” For a narcissist, whose sense of self depends on appearing right and in control, those words feel like a threat...

How do you explain emotional abuse to the people around you when you can barely explain it to yourself? In this episode, the roles are reversed. High-conflict divorce coach Eleanor Marks interviews Renee about her new book, This Is Not Okay, and the eleven years of healing behind it.

They talk about the "catching a ghost" feeling of self-doubt so many survivors of covert narcissistic abuse know, the kind of abuse that leaves no bruises, why family and friends often can't see what you're living, and how to untangle yourself, whether you stay or leave.

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What is a narcissist, really, and how does covert narcissism quietly destroy the closest relationships in your life? The word “narcissist” is everywhere right now, used for everything from a forgotten phone call to a snappy afternoon. But real narcissism isn’t about occasional human mistakes. It’s about consistent patterns that make genuine intimacy impossible.

This is part one of a two-part series on the two characteristics that lead the way: a lack of empathy and a lack of vulnerability. Renee Swanson explains it through the image of an old castle door, bolted shut in both directio...

Every text, email, and social media post you write could end up in front of a judge. In part two of this conversation, Renee and attorney Rebecca Zung get practical about protecting yourself from a narcissist in court, whether you're facing a divorce, a custody case, or a high-conflict co-parent.

Rebecca explains what's safe to post when you're looking for support, and why she tells clients to write like they're reporting the news. She explains why building leverage matters more than proving the other person is a narcissist, and how to turn thousands of screenshots into an...

In covert narcissism, even the “good” behavior is part of the manipulation. You thought you married Cliff Huxtable, only to find out you married Bill Cosby. If that line lands in your stomach, this episode is for you.

So many survivors say, “He’s being good right now,” or “She’s in a good place this week.” But what if those sweet seasons aren’t breaks from the manipulation at all? What if they’re the most effective part of it? Renee introduces a new concept, counterfeit kindness: kindness that looks real, feels real and passes inspection, but has nothing behi...

What does a narcissist really want in a divorce? It usually isn't money, love, or logic. It's image. In this episode, Renee welcomes back attorney Rebecca Zung, who has spent more than 25 years in family law and now focuses on helping people negotiate with narcissists and other high-conflict personalities.

Rebecca explains why covert narcissists protect their image at any cost. She also describes how they quietly control your image by planting seeds with friends and family months before a custody case begins. She and Renee talk about why the goalposts keep moving, why going straight to a...

Covert narcissism often comes down to one simple question: who in your relationship is afraid to disagree? Renee walks through five everyday scenes: a restaurant, a mutual friend, the family dog, a wedding, and the car radio. Each one shows how a small difference of opinion can turn into an hour-long lecture, a loyalty test, the silent treatment, or an explosion. Over time, the person on the receiving end learns that staying quiet is the only way to keep the peace, and life becomes a constant walk on eggshells.

Renee explains why narcissistic people state their opinions...

What happens when an AI questions the story of someone who has spent years not being believed? In part two of this conversation, Renee and Anne Wintemute, founder of Aimee Says, look at how some AI tools push back on users in subtle ways, like "if it happened the way you say," and why that can feel a lot like gaslighting to survivors of covert narcissism.

Anne explains how to move past validation to the question "now what?" and how survivors can use AI to organize journals, screenshots, and years of co-parenting messages in one place. She...

Covert narcissism doesn't only show up between adults. It can shape how a parent relates to their own child. In this episode, Renee unpacks what happens when a parent can't hold the adult role in a disagreement, using a real client story about a mother who argues with her two-year-old daughter as though they were siblings.

Renee traces this back to the same "on purpose" pattern she's experienced firsthand — where neutral, even funny moments get reinterpreted as personal attacks — and explores what this pattern does to a child's emotional development, and what it's like to watch it unfo...

Covert narcissism survivors are turning to AI for support, but what happens when it gets your story wrong? In this episode, Renee welcomes back Anne Wintemute, founder of Aimee Says, an AI tool built specifically for people who are in, or recovering from, controlling, manipulative, and abusive relationships.

Anne explains why AI can only be as accurate as the context you give it, and why a missing detail can lead it to a conclusion that feels deeply invalidating to someone in narcissistic abuse recovery. She and Renee talk about the real benefits and pitfalls of AI, why...

Covert narcissism rarely says sorry out loud. Instead, it hands you a gift, plans a nice dinner, or turns on a sudden burst of affection — and calls it even. Renee Swanson breaks down why these gestures work like a reset button, closing the incident without ever offering the three things a real apology requires: accountability, humility, and vulnerability.

She reads a personal story from her upcoming book, This Is Not Okay, about watching her own son learn to accept a Sonic slushie in place of an apology from his father — and traces that pattern all the way back...

Covert narcissism recovery isn't just about understanding what happened to you — it's about finding your way back to yourself. In part two of this conversation, Renee continues talking with psychotherapist and author Amy Lewis Bear, picking up right at the emotional core of this discussion: vulnerability, and why it's often the very thing survivors of narcissistic abuse recovery are most afraid to offer again.

Amy shares two powerful stories from her own therapy practice — clients who spent years walking on eggshells and shrinking themselves inside relationships marked by trauma bonding and emotional dysregulation, and who eventually found the...

Covert narcissism doesn't always look like yelling or control — sometimes it's a completely ordinary conversation that somehow ends with you defending yourself against something you never said. This is what I call a circular conversation: every word you say gets fed through a filter that isn't listening to you, it's listening for a reason to feel attacked, or a reason to be right.

Using real, everyday examples — a comment about milk, a text about being home around 6 — I walk through exactly how neutral statements get twisted into accusations, why doing this to your spouse, the person who's suppos...

Covert narcissism doesn't always look like screaming matches or dramatic blowups — sometimes it looks like a slow, quiet erosion of who you are. In this episode, Renee sits down with psychotherapist and author Amy Lewis Bear, who has spent nearly twenty years helping people through narcissistic abuse recovery and emotionally abusive relationships, and who has lived through this pattern herself.

Amy is the author of From Charm to Harm: The Guide to Spotting, Naming, and Stopping Emotional Abuse in Intimate Relationships, where she identified more than fifty subtle tactics — including gaslighting — used to keep a partner off balanc...

Last week, we asked whether passive-aggressive behavior is always narcissistic. The answer was no — but that still left a big question: how do you actually tell the difference in real time, and what do you do once you know?

This episode gives you both. We go deeper into fear-based and care-based passive aggression — the kind that comes from being afraid of conflict, or from truly not wanting to hurt someone's feelings — and we talk honestly about how this pattern can show up even in survivors of covert narcissistic abuse themselves.

Then we get practical. You'll learn...

Did they make you feel guilty for taking time for yourself? In this episode of the Covert Narcissism Podcast, Renee Swanson reads through real responses from her Covert Narcissism Group — the private Facebook community she started in 2018 — after asking members one question: what do you do now, just because you enjoy it?

From napping and puzzles to solo walks, quiet mornings, and leaving the dishes in the sink, this episode explores how survivors of covert narcissistic abuse are reclaiming the small joys that were once used against them. Renee breaks down why covert narcissists sabotage self-care and auto...

Ever asked someone "are you okay?" and gotten a four-syllable "I'm fine" that clearly meant the opposite? That's passive-aggressive behavior — and it's one of the sneakiest patterns to name out loud, because it's built to be deniable.

In this episode, we break down the real signs of passive-aggressive behavior across relationships, family, friendships, and work — with specific examples you'll recognize immediately. Then we tackle the question listeners ask constantly: is all passive-aggressive behavior narcissistic?

The honest answer is no. Some people are passive-aggressive because they're genuinely afraid of conflict, not because they're trying to manipulate you...

What if the episode you already listened to still has more to teach you the second time around?

In this throwback episode of the Covert Narcissism Podcast, Renee revisits one of the most-requested episodes in the show's history — the original breakdown of the six types of narcissism: grandiose, vulnerable, malignant, communal, somatic, and cerebral. Instead of just replaying it, she reads back her own words from a year and a half ago and reframes them with everything she's learned since, including sharper insight into how covert narcissism shows up differently across each type, and what those patterns ac...

Covert narcissism doesn't just create crisis moments — it leaves your nervous system stuck in a chronic state of hypervigilance long after the argument ends. You can get good at managing the spike, catching yourself mid-reaction, and still lie awake at night with your jaw clenched and your shoulders up around your ears for no reason at all.

In this episode on narcissistic abuse recovery, Renee explains allostatic load — what happens when a nervous system adapts to years of walking on eggshells, gaslighting, and unpredictable moods in a covert narcissistic relationship, and never fully comes back down. She brea...

Ever ignored a gut feeling on a date because you wanted to "give him a chance"? In this episode, I'm sharing a conversation from Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse — host Dr. Kerry McAvoy sits down with Dr. Jennie Young, a PhD linguist and creator of the viral Burned Haystack Dating Method, to break down how the words men use in dating profiles and early text messages expose who they really are before you've ever met in person.

Dr. Young holds a PhD in rhetoric and discourse studies, specializing in critical discourse analysis — the study of how language reve...

If you've ever felt your chest tighten before your phone even finishes ringing, or braced for a reaction before you've said a single word — you already know what fight or flight feels like in a covert narcissistic relationship. It's rarely one dramatic moment. It's the accumulation: a grocery store phone call, an ordinary dinner plan, a night class — small moments that train your nervous system to expect danger from everyday life.

In this episode, part one of a two-part series on fight or flight and narcissistic abuse recovery, Renee breaks down what's actually happening in your body duri...

In Part 2 of this CNG Community Chat, Renee Swanson continues the conversation with three parents navigating parental alienation and covert narcissistic abuse — this time focused on how to protect the relationship with the children they still have access to, and how to hold onto hope with the ones they don't.

The conversation opens with a powerful explanation of why alienation happens the way it does: narcissists often break down the other parent first, creating chaos and instability, so they can step in as the "fun" or "stable" one by comparison — making it far harder for kids to see...

This isn't my story anymore. It's ours.

In this solo episode, I'm finally announcing something I've been sitting on for a long time: my book, This Is Not Okay: Escaping the Invisible Grip of Covert Narcissistic Abuse, is coming this fall.

I walk you through the five stages this book moves through — the same stages so many of us move through on the way to healing from covert narcissistic abuse: recognizing, understanding, seeing, untangling, and reclaiming. I share what's inside each stage, including a few passages straight from the pages.

But more than an...

In this CNG Community Chat, host Renee Swanson sits down with three parents who are living through one of the most painful experiences a parent can face: watching a child be turned against them. This conversation covers parental alienation, covert narcissism, high-conflict divorce, and co-parenting with a narcissistic ex — and the very real toll it takes on the parent-child relationship.

Each parent shares the moment they first recognized what was happening. One mother describes how truths that surfaced during her divorce led her adult daughter to accuse her of "victim shaming" her father, and how setting boundaries af...

Have you ever discovered narcissism in your relationship, started reading everything you could find, and then panicked — wondering if you were the one who created the pattern you were seeing? In this episode of the Covert Narcissism Podcast, Renee Swanson opens up about a fear she's never shared before: the worry that dwelling on covert narcissism had somehow manifested it in her marriage. She walks through the exact passages from Eleanor Payson's The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists that jumped off the page at her early in her journey, and why recognition is not the same thing as ma...

Narcissistic abuse and predatory behavior often hide in plain sight — and this episode pulls back the curtain on exactly how. In this special crossover conversation, I'm sharing an episode from Dr. Kerry McAvoy's podcast, Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse, featuring her conversation with Don Hennessy.

Don Hennessy is an Irish psychotherapist who has spent decades working directly with abusive men and their partners, giving him a rare, firsthand understanding of how predatory control actually operates. In this episode, Don and Kerry expose the hidden playbook these men use to infiltrate a partner's mind — often so gradually that she...

Narcissistic entitlement rarely looks like arrogance from the outside. Often it looks like two people with "different expectations" — normal disagreements, normal marriage friction. In this episode of the Covert Narcissism Podcast, Renee Swanson breaks down why that framing is misleading: in a relationship with a covert narcissist, one partner's expectations are about the relationship, and the other partner's expectations are simply about being served by it.

Renee shares her own story of slowly recognizing this pattern — long after she was living inside it — and unpacks the difference between expectations that include both people and expectations that only ever p...

Part two of this CNG Community Chat picks up where we left off, as four moms go deeper into what it's like to parent through covert narcissistic abuse. They talk honestly about whether they see these patterns showing up again in their kids' own relationships and friendships, and close with the one piece of advice each of them wishes she'd been given back when she was standing right where you might be standing now.

If this resonates, my coaching program can help you work through it one-on-one — learn more here: www.covertnarcissism.com

Want conversations li...

Covert narcissism doesn't always look like rage — sometimes it looks like a warm smile and a locked tower door. In this episode, we break down two Disney stories that map almost perfectly onto real narcissistic abuse patterns: Beauty and the Beast, and Tangled.

The Beast shows the overt side — imprisonment, an explosive temper, a rescue that resets everything, and the exact mechanics of trauma bonding when the source of fear and the source of safety are the same person. Mother Gothel shows the covert side — guilt instead of rage, conditional warmth instead of yelling, isolation dressed up as pro...

In this two-part CNG Community Chat, four moms sit down to talk about one of the hardest parts of covert narcissistic abuse recovery: watching your children start to see it for themselves. In part one, they share the specific moments — some sudden, some slow-dawning — when their kids realized what was really happening at home, and what daily life looks like now as their relationships with the other parent shift. If you've ever wondered how much your kids really see, or carried guilt about what they've lived through, this conversation will meet you right where you are.

If this...

When one parent shows up as the "nice, generous" one — buying gifts instead of ever offering real repair, gaslighting instead of listening — kids learn to distrust the very signals that are supposed to keep them safe. In this episode, Renee walks through practical, age-specific tools to help kids and teens of a covert narcissist reconnect with their own nervous system: how to recognize an emotional signal before it becomes a full-blown meltdown, how to separate a parent's gaslighting from their own gut-check, and how to teach a child that their feelings don't need anyone's permission to be real. Whether you...

In part two of this community chat, the conversation goes even deeper. We pick back up right where we left off — with Denise sharing what it actually took to go no contact after twenty-seven years of covert narcissistic abuse, including the post-separation hoovering, manipulation, and false self-awareness that so often follows a breakup or divorce with a covert narcissist. She also opens up about hitting a devastating low point before finally realizing that no contact was the only way forward — a moment that changes everything for her.

We talk about triangulation, and how a narcissistic paren...

If you've ever felt like something was missing in a relationship with a covert narcissist — a flatness, a lack of depth, a sense that you're never quite reaching the real person — this episode is for you.

In this episode, Renee breaks down the mask covert narcissists wear using a new framework: not a costume hiding a "true self," but a crown covering an exposed nerve that never developed protection. This reframe explains why the mask never fully comes off, and why even gentle honesty can trigger a reaction that feels wildly out of proportion.

You'll lear...

Some of the hardest questions in a narcissistic relationship don't have easy answers — and "do I stay, or do I go" is one of them. In this episode, I'm joined by three women from our CNG community for a raw, honest community chat about life inside a covert narcissistic relationship, and the impossible in-between of knowing something is wrong but not knowing what to do about it.

These ladies each share their own version of the fog — the gradual awakening to covert narcissism, the years spent believing this was just normal marital struggle, and the moment they fina...

When you finally speak your truth to a covert narcissist, you expect relief. What you don't expect is what comes next.

In this episode — the follow-up to Covert Narcissist Relationships: When You Can't Live the Lie Anymore — Renee Swanson walks through what actually happens in the aftermath of confronting a covert narcissist. Why love bombing feels like hope but is really about control. What a smear campaign looks like and why the people around you believe it. How to recognize when escalation and rage are designed to make you feel like the confrontation was your mistake.

Re...

Do you owe your toxic aging parent everything... or nothing? Clinical psychologist Dr. Lisa Stinson, author of The Obligation Myth: Rethinking What You Owe Your Difficult Aging Parent, joins the show to unpack what happens when a critical, dismissive, or covertly narcissistic parent starts needing care — and why "I do everything" or "I do nothing" was never the real choice.

We dig into the specific family roles that get assigned in childhood — the scapegoat, the golden child, the invisible child, and the enmeshed child — and how each one carries a different wound, gets triggered differently, and needs a comp...