Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

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A single prescription can change your life, but not always in the way you were promised. We sit down with Ellen P. Lubensky, Esquire, a Stanford graduate and attorney, to talk about what patients rarely hear clearly: the real-world risks of psychiatric medications, the gaps in informed consent, and how quickly benzodiazepine dependence can take hold when you’re just trying to sleep.

Ellen shares her personal and professional perspective after decades on psychiatric meds, including being physically disabled by a severe movement disorder linked to antipsychotics and later facing crushing in...

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A child doesn’t have the vocabulary for moral injury, PTSD, or hypervigilance, but they can feel a parent’s distance in their bones. When a service member or veteran comes home changed, kids often fill in the blank with the most painful explanation possible: “It must be my fault.” That’s where our conversation with licensed psychologist Dr. Pat Pernicano gets real, fast. She spent years at the South Texas VA working with veterans and co-developing Acceptance and Forgiveness Therapy, and she now focuses on how parental trauma ripples through children and family sys...

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Silence can be a survival skill, especially when the system around you feels like it will punish the truth. We sit down with Paula J. Kemp, a U.S. Navy combat veteran who served during Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom as a combat photographer, to talk about what happens when the uniform you love becomes the setting for military sexual trauma (MST) and the long shadow it can cast afterward.

Paula walks us through the real-world barriers that keep survivors from reporting: rank, credibility, unit loyalty, fear of retaliation...

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A combat zone can train you to function without feelings and then punish you for it later. Chris Lo joins us from Singapore to tell a story that starts with conscript service and a West Point education and ends in Afghanistan with a coalition mission to mentor Afghan artillery instructors under NATO. Along the way, he gives a rare look at how danger builds: not just firefights, but rising tension, missing intelligence, and the constant sense that something is about to break.

We dig into the Quran burning unrest, green-on-blue threats...

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He hit bottom on the street, shaking with delirium tremors, and had a realization that changed everything: alcoholism was never just about alcohol. We talk with Dr. Robb Kelly, PhD, a recovery expert who’s spent decades studying the brain, trauma, and what actually drives compulsive behavior, from alcohol dependence to drug addiction, anxiety, and depression.

We get into the invisible part of the story: the subconscious thinking patterns that form in childhood, the “normal” experiences that later reveal themselves as trauma, and the belief systems that keep people stuck in self-s...

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What if the highest form of leadership is love—and the clearest proof of love is accountability? We sit down with retired U.S. Coast Guard commander and culture-change consultant Patti Tutalo to dig into the mechanics of humane leadership that actually improves readiness. Patty shares hard-won insights from operations, Pentagon policy, and a landmark women’s retention study that revealed a painful truth: people don’t leave because of one bad day; they leave after a thousand small cuts. From hair and nail rules used as weapons to leaders rewarded for numbers while...

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What happens when “service before self” collides with the limits of a human soul? We sit down with veteran, board-certified psychotherapist, and spiritual transformation coach Malaysia Harrell to unpack moral injury, the stigma around getting help, and why healing takes more than motivation. Malaysia’s path runs from the Air Force and the U.S. Public Health Service to senior roles in addiction medicine and presidential support, giving her a rare view of how policy, culture, and people intersect. She shares unflinching stories from deployments and the Afghanistan withdrawal, where lawful actions still left d...

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A Friday shift, a crowded Walmart, a woman advancing with a hatchet—then two shots that changed countless lives. Captain Adam Myers walks us through that moment with uncommon clarity, and then opens the door to what most people never see: the months and years of fallout, the moral injury that lingers even when policy is followed, and the stigma that punishes honesty more than failure. It’s a story about survival, but also about systems that make survival harder than it should be.

We talk about cumulative stress in policing and...

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What if the pain keeping you up at night isn’t stress or fear, but the belief that you crossed your own line? We unpack moral injury—the wound to your moral identity—through vivid stories from emergency rooms, newsrooms, child protective services, prisons, and the lives of survivors. Instead of fear-based PTSD, we focus on judgment, shame, guilt, and betrayal, and why soothing a nervous system isn’t enough when the verdict in your head is I am a bad person.

We walk through acts of commission and omission, along with bet...

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Grief doesn’t wait for business hours, and it rarely shows up when your therapist is free. That’s why we sat down with Guardian Angels founder and CEO John Cammer to unpack a bold idea: a guided journal that “talks back,” offering compassionate, structured prompts and immediate responses designed to help you accept the loss, process the pain, and carry the bond forward. Built with licensed grief therapists and grounded in Worden’s Four Tasks of Mourning, Guardian Angels uses AI to reflect the relationship you already hold within you—not to imitate a vo...

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Truth telling shouldn’t cost you your career, your health, or your future. Yet too many people who report fraud, harassment, or ethical violations face a second wave of harm: quiet retaliation that isolates, undermines, and erodes trust. We sit down with Dr. Jackie Garrick—Army social worker, Pentagon policy leader, and founder of Whistleblowers of America—to unpack what moral injury looks like in everyday workplaces and how to navigate it without going alone.

Jackie breaks down the nine tactics organizations use to silence complaints—gaslighting, mobbing, shunning, double binds, blacklis...

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When your life gets bigger, the inner critic often gets louder. We sit down with Dr. Elizabeth Fulgaro—award-winning author, songwriter, and financial coach—to explore how song-driven prayer and simple journaling can transform self-talk, rebuild resilience, and heal the hidden wounds that surface under pressure. Her journey from lifelong self-hatred to self-acceptance and then self-love is disarmingly honest, practical, and grounded in research with women veterans.

We unpack a 28-day practice that pairs curated “song prayers” with a quick daily check-in to track mood before and after listening. The results? Every pa...

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The hardest wounds to name are the ones that whisper you’re not good. We sit down with a VA chaplain, Army veteran, and moral health scholar to explore moral injury as a shame-rooted fracture of identity—not just a cluster of symptoms. Together we draw a clear line between fear-based PTSD and the moral injuries that follow betrayal, military sexual trauma, and violations of conscience, and we examine why the path to repair runs through truth, presence, and belonging.

We dig into a four-part model of moral health—belief, identity, integr...

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What happens when the warrior returns home? When the sense of purpose that fueled their mission suddenly evaporates? Anthony Dyer's powerful journey from combat aviator to author reveals the silent battles that continue long after the gunfire ceases.

Growing up in the rugged Appalachian Mountains of North Carolina, Anthony carried that spirit of resilience into an extraordinary career as a Combat Special Missions Aviator in the U.S. Air Force. Over more than a decade, he flew 200+ combat missions and accumulated 2,700 flight hours across multiple aircraft, from AC-130 gunships to Pave...

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The invisible wounds of military service don't just affect the service member—they ripple through the entire family system. Dr. Marg Rogers pulls back the curtain on this often-overlooked reality, sharing powerful insights from her work developing research-based resources for families affected by moral injury and service-related trauma.

Drawing from personal experience watching her uncle struggle after Vietnam, Dr. Rogers explains how moral injury manifests in family dynamics. Parents experiencing moral injury often withdraw emotionally, not from lack of love, but from feelings of unworthiness or fear of "contaminating" their children. Th...

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When Jenna Carlton left the Navy in 2017 after serving as an aerographer's mate, she faced a question that would fuel her mission: "Where are all the younger veterans?" This powerful conversation reveals how she's addressing that gap through community building and targeted resources.

Fresh from her military experience, Jenna shares candidly about the realities women face in service—sexualization, harassment, and the personality shifts many adopt for self-protection. Her journey took her to Capitol Hill, where she hoped to influence veteran policy, only to discover that grassroots community building would be he...

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What happens when your personal values collide with the organization you're expected to serve? For military women, this clash often leads to a profound sense of moral injury that can impact every aspect of life. 

Shelly Rood brings a refreshingly candid perspective to this challenging reality. As a former military intelligence officer who now coaches high-achieving leaders, she shares powerful insights about navigating the tension between excellence and authenticity. The conversation takes us beyond typical military discussions into the raw, human experience of feeling perpetually at odds with systemic expectations.

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Moral injury remains one of the most misunderstood challenges facing women veterans today. When actions during military service violate one's deeply held moral beliefs, the resulting invisible wounds can devastate lives long after uniforms are hung up. Unlike PTSD, moral injury hides beneath the surface—characterized by shame, guilt, and internal conflict rather than outward distress.

Dr. Daniel Roberts, president of Moral Injury Support Network for Servicewomen Inc., takes listeners through an illuminating exploration of how to recognize these hidden wounds. Drawing from his upcoming book "Moral Injury: A Guidebook for Wo...

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Lieutenant Colonel Alea Nadeem's story begins with trauma that would break many people – kidnapped at age eight by her own father and taken from the United States to Iraq for nearly four years. Born to an American Catholic mother and Iraqi Muslim father, cultural and religious tensions tore her family apart when her father took the family on what was supposed to be a visit to Iraq. When it came time to leave, he forced her mother to choose which daughter to take back to America, leaving young Alea behind.

This pr...

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Have you ever wondered what happens when your entire world changes in an instant? When the person you thought you were suddenly doesn't exist anymore? Kijuan Amey's powerful story answers these questions with unflinching honesty and remarkable hope.

After ten years in the Air Force as an in-flight refueling specialist, Kijuan's life trajectory changed forever when a motorcycle accident claimed his eyesight in 2017. Waking up in darkness, he faced the devastating reality that his military career, independence, and future plans had vanished overnight. "I went from being this super independent 25-year-old...

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Dr. Daniel Roberts pulls back the curtain on an overlooked trauma affecting thousands of military women—one that doesn't yet have a household name. As president of the Moral Injury Support Network for Service Women, he reveals how violating one's deeply held moral code creates wounds different from PTSD but equally devastating.

The conversation begins with shocking real-life examples: a woman forced by her commander to have an abortion, another treated as if her very presence in the military was wrong. These aren't isolated incidents. Conservative estimates suggest at least one in...

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What does it take to keep moving forward when life hits you with its absolute worst? Andy Campbell has endured childhood sexual abuse, lost his mother at an early age, become estranged from his father, battled stage four pancreatic cancer, and faced the devastating suicide of his youngest son. Yet somehow, he's not only survived—he's found a way to thrive.

In our conversation, Andy reveals the transformative power of his "15 core beliefs"—principles that have carried him through what would crush many of us. "No one outruns the universe," he shar...

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What happens when a highly accomplished military officer confronts her own mortality? Dr. Deanna Won's story begins at the Air Force Academy in the 1980s, where as one of just 200 women in her class, she faced an environment that tested her resolve from day one. "They tried to railroad me out," she reveals, describing both gender-based discrimination and racial bias that created unique challenges beyond what her fellow female cadets experienced.

Through unflinching determination and faith, Deanna not only survived but thrived, embarking on an extraordinary 30-year military career as a...

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Moral injury – the profound wound that occurs when one's deepest moral codes are violated – affects countless veterans yet remains largely misunderstood. This powerful episode brings together three voices at the forefront of healing this invisible wound: retired Colonel Lisa Carrington Firman, who transformed her experiences with combat and military sexual trauma into award-winning books; psychologist Dr. Pat Pernicano and retired chaplain Kerry Haynes, who developed an innovative curriculum combining psychological and spiritual approaches to moral injury healing.

Unlike PTSD, moral injury strikes at the core of identity and meaning, often manifesting as c...

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Emie Clevenger shares a powerful journey from Navy veteran to nonprofit founder, revealing how her personal struggles with period poverty as a young girl fueled her mission to create Period Kits North Carolina. The conversation opens a window into the often-hidden world of menstrual inequality, where one in six women in North Carolina can't afford or access basic hygiene products needed during their periods.

Emie's military experience reflects a deeply troubling reality many servicewomen face – being treated as though they don't belong simply because of their gender. Though proud of her se...

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As healthcare professionals, first responders, and veterans, the weight of difficult decisions and traumatic experiences can take a toll on our well-being. It's easy to feel isolated, burdened by guilt, or unsure of how to move forward.

Know that healing is possible.

In this session with Dr. Deborah Howell, we delve into Rebuilding Your Identity After Trauma: A Path to Healing and Wholeness.

Trauma can leave us feeling disconnected and unsure of who we are. It may seem like we’re lost, unable to rebuild or reclaim wh...

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Behind the uniform, beyond the homecoming ceremonies, military families face a battlefield few civilians ever witness. The invisible wounds of moral injury and PTSD transform homes into pressure cookers of tension, where walking on eggshells becomes a survival skill and children absorb trauma they don't understand.

Drawing from twenty revealing interviews with military spouses, Dr. Daniel Roberts exposes the harsh realities these families endure. Service members struggle with intrusive thoughts, memory problems, emotional detachment, and hypervigilance – often undiagnosed and untreated due to stigma or career concerns. When flashbacks strike or nightmares tu...

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Elizabeth Estabrooks takes us on a profound journey through trauma, healing, and the unexpected paths to recovery in this eye-opening conversation about her new book "Broken in the Stronger Places: From Resilience to Resourcefulness."

Drawing from three decades working with survivors of personal violence, Estabrooks challenges the popular metaphor that trauma makes us "stronger in the broken places." While many embrace the Japanese art of kintsugi—repairing broken pottery with gold—as a symbol of trauma recovery, she reveals a more complex truth: trauma never truly disappears. Even after extensive healing work...

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Imagine facing a struggle that isn't just about the battlefield, but one that follows you home, affecting those closest to you. This episode opens up a much-needed discussion on how moral injury extends beyond PTSD, delving into the feelings of guilt, shame, and even spiritual crisis. Through ongoing research with the Moral Injury Support Network and Thomas Jefferson University, we gain insights from interviews with military spouses, exploring the profound impact on their mental health and relationships.

Personal stories of military families navigating the tumultuous waters of PTSD reveal a world...

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Dr. Amelia Duran Stanton, a revered colonel with an impressive 32-year tenure in the US Army, unveils her extraordinary life story and shares her wisdom on empowerment and resilience. Her journey from an enlisted soldier to a colonel is not just a tale of professional success but also one of personal growth and mentorship. Dr. Stanton's book "The Lotus Within" serves as a beacon for women striving to strategically plan their futures, offering insights into prioritization and time management. Tune in to uncover her motivations and the invaluable lessons she imparts for both...

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Vicki Thompson spent over $100,000 on her own divorce, an experience that opened her eyes to the predatory nature of the family law system. Now, as the president and founder of Divorce Right and Farewell, Vicki is on a mission to educate and empower individuals navigating the tumultuous waters of divorce. In this episode, she shares her personal journey and the lessons she's learned, offering insights into minimizing the financial and emotional toll divorce can take on individuals, businesses, and government entities.

For those trapped in toxic relationships, the road to freedom...

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Discover the profound impacts of moral injury on veterans and their families with insights from Dr. Daniel Roberts, president and CEO of the Moral Injury Support Network for Service Women Incorporated. Explore how feelings of shame, guilt, and self-blame can lead to serious challenges such as homelessness, substance abuse, and social isolation. We promise you'll gain a deeper understanding of moral injury as we differentiate it from PTSD, and learn why this distinction is crucial for effective support and recovery. Through the compelling story of Faith, a Hispanic woman dealing with racism-induced moral...

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Unlock the mysteries of moral injury with Dr. Daniel Roberts as we journey into a realm often overshadowed by PTSD. What truly sets moral injury apart from other psychological wounds? This episode promises to enrich your understanding by delving into the intricate layers of moral injury, exploring its roots in experiences of betrayal, trauma, and ethical conflict. Through heartfelt stories and reflections, we aim to shed light on how moral injury manifests in various communities, including women veterans, racial minorities, and those facing sexual identity discrimination, emphasizing the vital need for recognition and...

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What if you could find a way to support your loved ones through the toughest times while also taking care of yourself? Join us for an insightful conversation with Dr. Daniel Roberts and clinical psychologist Dr. Michelle Sherman as we uncover the crucial support systems for families touched by trauma and mental illness. Michelle's collaboration with her mother in creating resources for teenagers grappling with deployment-related issues is spotlighted, offering a unique perspective on the challenges military families face. This episode sheds light on the significance of trauma-informed educational approaches.

Together...

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Discover the hidden psychological wounds of moral injury and how they profoundly affect our service women. Unpack the foundational elements of moral injury that separate it from PTSD, and learn about the emotional and psychological toll it takes on those in the military. Inspired by the groundbreaking research of Jonathan Shay and others, this episode sheds light on the situations that often lead to moral injury, including betrayal by authority figures and the pressure of high-stakes decisions. Real stories from women veterans bring these discussions to life, offering an intimate look into the...

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Discover the emotional realities and valuable lessons from veteran caregiving with our guests, Shawn Moore and Natasha Swayze. In this episode, we highlight Shawn's transformative journey from founding Caregivers on the Homefront in 2017 to its evolution into Operation Frontline Families. Learn how Shawn and Natasha are revolutionizing support systems for military families, emphasizing the importance of mental health and youth-focused programs.

We delve into the heart-wrenching challenges caregivers face, particularly when caring for veterans with PTSD. Listen as we share personal stories and discuss the heavy burden and guilt that accompany...

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What if the journey to recovery for servicewomen is more intricate than we thought? Join us for an extraordinary conversation with Dr. Rita Nakashima Brock, a prominent authority on moral injury, as we uncover the deeply personal and unique experiences of female veterans dealing with moral injury. Through powerful storytelling, Dr. Brock illustrates the implicit biases that can hinder effective support, sharing a moving example of a veteran who, despite losing her legs, yearned to wear high heels. This episode shines a spotlight on the need to address gender-specific experiences to foster genuine...

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Can trauma from a single event create a lasting moral injury or PTSD? Join us as we explore this compelling question with Annette Hill, a licensed professional counselor and EMDR certified therapist whose dedication to trauma treatment is both professional and deeply personal. Annette shares her remarkable journey from her influential role in the Lifebook program for foster children to her creation of the Journey of Me curriculum. Her heartfelt commitment to veterans is evident through her long-term involvement with Operation Freedom Bird, and as a Gold Star mother, she brings a unique...

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Discover the profound connections between early childhood trauma and long-term well-being with Dr. Shanta Dubé, a trailblazer from the CDC Kaiser Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) study, who graces our podcast with her extensive knowledge. Delving into the ACE study's revelations, we learn how these experiences shape not just physical and mental health, but also spiritual development, highlighting the concept of moral injury and its pervasive influence. Dr. Dubé shares anecdotes from her personal encounters with individuals in recovery, offering a unique perspective on the intersection of trauma, spirituality, and healing. Her insights promise to...

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When the weight of choice teeters between life and death, how does one find grounding in their decisions? Dr. Sarah Archer's voice trembles with the raw emotion of her time in Rwanda, post-genocide, as she maps the treacherous terrain of moral injury for us. Her candid recollection of reverse triage, the emotional toll it exacted, and her quest for solace through faith and service reverberate through the episode, offering a stark, humane look at the cost of crisis.

Our journey doesn't end there; we cross paths with a resilient 80-year-old former...