Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast

David Santistevan talks with John Van Deusen, a former indie-rock musician and current worship director in Anacortes, Washington, about bringing experimental sounds and artistic risk into worship music. Van Deusen traces how the Pacific Northwest’s DIY scene and his own journey of faith shaped his records, then offers practical ways worship teams can reimagine familiar songs while keeping congregational participation central.

Chapters

The post #405: Righteousness And Peacemaking Through Holy Activism With Jonathan Tremaine Thomas appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

What is spiritual formation? What does it mean to follow Jesus? How do we change and transform? Does it happen in a moment or develop over a lifetime? So much of modern evangelicalism is oriented towards encounter – powerful experiences. I – for one – am grateful for powerful experiences I’ve had in the presence of God. But when we frame spiritual growth as a moment – as an encounter – what are we missing out on? In what ways are we being malformed?

This is the subject of my conversation with Jonathan R. Bailey, author of the new book Dwelling in Christ: D...

Topics Covered:

Resources Mentioned:

Show Sponsor #1: Dwell Bible

If you’re a follower of Jesus, you know you’re supposed to share your faith.We’re supposed to tell others about Jesus. But it’s often a topic that gives any Christian anxiety. What if I don’t know how to articulate what I believe? What if someone asks me a difficult question I don’t know how to answer?

What if I’m a terrible Christian, fail in my defense, get laughed at, and the name of Christ is disrespected because I don’t know what I’m talking about?

Take a deep breath…

Maya Angelou once said, “”History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, however, if faced with courage, need not be lived again.”

The discipline of reading and studying history is not to make us feel good. It’s to instruct us so we don’t repeat the same mistakes.

One of the greatest living historians of American Christianity is Kristin Kobes Du Mez. Her book Jesus And John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation explores how American evangelicalism embraced militant masculinity and Christian nationalism. It was released in 2020 and was a worldwid...

A question I have wrestled with is…what makes the CHURCH different in the midst of our modern culture? What makes our local churches different than what other organizations have to offer?

What happens when our local churches become oriented merely towards pragmatism?

That’s what I talk about with Pastor and Author Brian Zahnd. Brian is the pastor of Word of Life Church in St. Joseph, MO and is no stranger to the Beyond Sunday Podcast. He has a new book called Unseen Existences: Of Heaven, Earth, and the Divine Mystery in All Things.

If you’ve listened to this podcast at all in the past, you probably have some connection to either Christian music or worship music. Maybe you love it and worship music and Christian radio helps you get through the day. Maybe you’re a worship leader, always on the lookout for great worship songs for your church to sing.

But maybe you have a love/hate relationship with the Christian music industry. You’ve been burned by it. You’ve seen how the sausage is made.

This is a tension I hold. I love worship music. I...

I think so many of us are longing for a faith that meets us right where we are. A faith that we can practice in school car line. At work. On a hospital bed. During a pandemic. A faith that is not merely escapism or triumphalism but a real faith in Christ that works not for the benefits it gives us, but for the ways it opens us up to the mystery of God. A faith that leaves room for questions, doubts, and one in which we don’t have to perform to perfection.

That’s why I lo...

Not all spiritual formation is created equal. Just because you read your Bible, pray, and go to church every Sunday does not mean you are being renewed – as Colossians 3:10 says – in the image and knowledge of your creator.

A very good litmus test for us as followers of Jesus is…do we look like Jesus? Do we love what Jesus loved? Do we love whom Jesus loved? Do we speak as Jesus spoke? Do we embody what Jesus lived and died for?

That has been the historical definition of a Christian for generations: little Christs. 

...

When I was a young teenager, I heard a traveling evangelist say the best form of therapy was speaking in tongues. The preacher at the time was criticizing modern therapy as unchristian and, ultimately unnecessary. We don’t need to sit in rooms and endless unpack our problems and our past trauma. What people need more than anything – he said – is the presence of God.

I understand the sentiment. I love the presence of God. I believe there is tremendous value in spiritual disciplines, practices, and experiences with God. But what happens to our formation as people when w...

I remember my days as a young worship leader. There was always this unspoken tension between being performative and pastoral. Is it my job as a worship leader to provide a powerful, exciting experience or to guide them in a healthy practice for their spiritual formation? When we say worship was really good this week, what do we mean? If you lead worship, you know the tension. When you put a singer or musician on a stage, under the lights, it is by definition a performance. Performance is not a bad thing,but we, at the same time feel...

If you’re like me, a child of the 80s, you grew up watching Star Wars. I understood a lot about Star Wars but what I didn’t understand at the time was how political it was. The empire and the rebellion. Resistance. Fighting for the underdog and the oppressed. Fighting for an alternative way of being that is not dictated by empire.

One of my goals with this podcast is to create a diverse platform of voices within the church. Voices on the margins. Artists on the margins. Theologians on the margins. One of those important voic...

The idea of worship is simple. Uncomplicated. When you think about it, worship is ascribing worth to someone or something.

As people of faith, we ascribe to God the worth, praise and adoration that He is due.

But worship that intersects with industry and organizations is inherently complicated. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong. That the worship industry is wrong or all mega church worship is unbiblical.

What it means that it’s complicated and it’s worth the wrestle.

Today’s guest is Anna Golden – a worship leader, songwriter, and artist...

Throughout church history there has always been an interesting tension between creativity and functionality. What is more important? Creating beautiful things or getting a certain message across? What is more important to worship? Right theology or beautiful art that displays the glory of God?

Do we need better theology in our songs or more honesty? We intuitively know this is a tension to manage, not a problem to solv  e. No one would argue that theology doesn’t matter. But has our pursuit of rightness caused us to lose some imagination? Some humanity?

Has our chu...

I’m not a Lead Pastor, but I can’t imagine anything more difficult than pastoring in today’s political climate. We feel that these days are unique, but in reality they are not. History has much to teach us.

Occasionally I like to bring Lead Pastors onto the podcast to talk about how they’re navigating cultural issues. My guest today is Evan Wickham. Evan is the older brother of Phil Wickham, also a worship leader and songwriter, and the pastor of Park Hill Church in San Diego, California. Here’s what’s interesting: In his very church...

When I accepted my first worship leader position over 20 years ago, I thought worship was all about the stage. Pick the right songs. Have the best musicians. Seamless transitions. Dial in your click and track system to perfection. While there’s nothing wrong with those dynamics – there was something I wasn’t considering. Worship culture. Now…culture has become a cliche – a buzzword, so to speak. But culture is the environment you steward. It’s the conditions you create to shape the people who are a part of your team. And that matters a lot.

So today, we’re going...

One of the practices that I believe is important for the church in America is to regularly evaluate and interrogate the systems we operate by. What can often pass as biblical is actually just business. What we believe to be Christian is actually just American. When we evaluate the systems we are shaped by, we are more prepared to pivot when our systems hurt people. When the efficiency of our churches miss what the Bible calls us to.

Is it all bad? Of course not. Is it all broken? Of course not. The church imperfect. We are...

Part of what I love to do with this podcast is highlight some voices that often get overlooked. Cultures that are often pushed to the margins of influence in the Church but have so much to offer us.

Today I’m speaking with Terry Wildman. Terry is the Lead Translator of the First Nations Version of the Bible. Currently there is a New Testament and Psalms and Proverbs available. And the Old Testament is currently being developed.

Terry is a man with native ancestry who grew up in Michigan, was saved during the Jesus Movement, an...

Humans disagree on a lot of things. Religion. Politics. The best brand of peanut butter. But if there’s one area where we can find some common ground, it’s productivity. Getting stuff done. We all – to a certain degree – have to cross items off our to-do list. Whether you’re a stay-at-home parent, Fortune 500 CEO, pastor, or entrepreneur, you have to take action on the goals that matter to you.

That’s why I’m talking to author/speaker Jon Acuff. He’s written a book called Procrastination Proof that simultaneously makes me feel seen and convicted at the...

It’s impossible to make an argument for a more important book in the history of the world than the Bible. I’ve grown up reading it. I’ve spent my life studying it. The BIBLE yes that’s the book for me. But the Bible is also a complicated book, full of various kinds of writing, from various authors, across many years. I’ve had my fair share of moment over the years in Leviticus, Numbers, and Song of Solomon where I’ve wondered…what is going on?

We all know we’re supposed to read it. But how are...

Topics Covered:

Resources Mentioned:

Show Sponsor:

This episode is brought to you by Planning...

Something I am so grateful for is the leadership experience I received growing up in the church. From a young age, I got involved in worship teams. I led small groups. I developed skills. I was put on stages I had no business being on. Church wasn’t just a weekly service we attended. It was a leadership incubator.

L. Michelle Smith has written a new book called Call And Response: 10 Leadership Lessons From the Black Church. In it she discusses how the Black Church has historically developed high level business leaders. The book borrows from culture, ne...

There’s an argument that has gone around for decades and it revolves around the idea of how much worship music do we need? Do we have enough?

On the one hand, yes, we have more worship music than we’ll ever be able to use in our Sunday morning services. And there’s also the argument that worship music is the most lucrative music in Christian music. I don’t think that can be debated.

So while there are business and industry incentives to make worship music that will always exist at the intersection of Chris...

If you’re a worship leader, you plan services. It comes with the territory. It’s part of the job. Most of the time, that comes down to picking songs.

But what are we missing in our churches when service planning, programming, and worship leading is reduced to merely picking songs?

W. David O. Taylor is Associate Professor of Theology & Culture at Fuller Theological Seminary as well as the director of various initiatives in worship, theology and the arts. He teaches courses in systematic theology, art and worship, art and theology, art and beauty, spiritual forma...

We are living in interesting times if you’re a Christian in America. Open social media for a second on any given day and you can see outrage on one side and celebration on the other for those who follow Jesus.

How are we supposed to navigate times like these?

What are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to think? What should followers of Jesus do in times like this?

I don’t have all the answers, but I appreciate bold voices who help us make sense of the chao...

This is an episode for the ministry underdog. There are some unwritten, unhelpful rules about worship ministry and Christian music that we need to say out loud. You’re too old. Your voice isn’t strong enough. You’re too overweight. Your style isn’t what we’re going for. You can’t be the face of the ministry.

Of course, we don’t say these things out loud, most of the time. But it appears that too often our modus operandi is to be attractive and impressive, beautiful. How are we going to sell the most records? Who i...

It’s becoming almost a tradition that when I need to talk about something really difficult, I invite David Gate on the Podcast. David is a former worship leader, recording artist turned author who has a keen eye about what is happening in the world. And he’s not afraid to tell it like it is. David wrote an article recently called “The Soundtrack For American Fascism is Worship Music” – I know, pretty intense. But also not entirely hard to believe, if you’re paying attention.

In this conversation we talk about it – how worship music can be co-opted to...

What is the future of worship leading? How important are worship leaders and how will that role continue to develop in the future? No one really knows, but it’s worth reflecting on. My guest today is Martha Munizzi – veteran gospel artist, songwriter, worship leader and co-pastor at epic life church in Orlando. This is an interesting conversation because Martha has the perspective of a worship leader and a pastor.

We talk about the tension of excellent worship experiences as it relates to church growth and simple congregational worship where the voice of the people take center stag...

Justice – when you hear that word what do you think of? The word carries some baggage in the church today and has become highly politicized. Too much justice talk and you can be dismissed as Marxist, woke, or a proponent of the “unbiblical” social justice gospel. But if you can remove yourself from cultural baggage, read the Bible with fresh eyes, and look at the life of Jesus, you see justice everywhere. Justice was central to the life and mission of Jesus. And it should be to his followers as well.

One of the best books I’ve read...

One of my goals with this podcast is not simply to talk about the spiritual but also the systemic. One could argue that the two are actually intertwined. Can Christian spirituality thrive in the midst of a toxic system? Is it possible to be formed opposite the ways of Jesus while using the name of Jesus? These are important questions to wrestle with and hold up to cultural Christianity today. We must talk about the cultural systems we are shaped by. That’s not divisive or an attack of the enemy. The truth always shines a light. And the tr...

Topics Covered:

Resources Mentioned:

Show Sponsor:

This episode is sponsored by Planning Center, an all-in-one church management software made to help churches help people. You can organize your ministries and keep everyone on your team communicating and aligned...

Part of my desire with this podcast is to highlight voices – important voices that may not break through into the Christian mainstream, but powerful and necessary voices nonetheless. One of those voices is the Rev. Dr. Otis Moss III, pastor of Trinity Church of Christ in Chicago. Dr Moss is a pastor, author, theologian, filmmaker and one of the very best preachers in America today. And I say that without hyperbole.

In this interview I talk with Dr. Moss about the black theological tradition, the black church, black music history, black worship, and what the global church ca...

What happens when Americans lose faith in their religious institutions – and politicians fill the void? As you study the scope of American history – and church history in America – you see an interesting connection to charisma. Charismatic leaders rise to prominence and galvanize a following. From the puritans and Andrew Jackson to black nationalists and Donald trump, the saga of American charisma stars figures who possess a bewildering power to move crowds. Charismatic leaders address spiritual needs, inviting followers into a story that gives them knowledge, power, and heroic status, whether as divinely chosen instruments of God or those who will r...

I’ve said for years that being a senior pastor is one of the most difficult jobs in the world. Yes, you have the responsibility to shepherd people and preach the Word of God. And when growth comes fast, you are forced to become a CEO of a corporation, in addition to pastoring people. You all of a sudden have a large staff and financial pressures that weigh heavily. But even more challenging – in my opinion – is pastoring in America where – for many Americans – faith is tied to their politics. This was no more evident in the wake of the terrib...

Just because something is “Christian” or has the label “Worship” on it does not mean its existence is completely sanctified. The truth is, the church exists in the world and is susceptible to any manner of abuse or dysfunction that any organization is. The same could be said for CCM or worship music. Worship Music still exists within the music industry. And that’s why it’s helpful to study the mechanisms that drive the worship music industry and how that affects local church worship leaders. I know for many, this is an uncomfortable topic to address. But the truth is, it...

Today’s conversation is with historian, author, and activist Dr. Jemar Tisby.

Early in 2025 I decided to read more history. Call it curiosity or wanting more context to our current political moment, I started to devour books about the Civil War and eventually more books about the Civil Rights era. One of those books was The Color of Compromise: The Truth About the American Church’s Complicity in Racism. And to be honest, I was blown away by this book. Mainly because I had never learned this stuff growing up. I’d learned history…but I hadn’t learned...

Today’s conversation is returning to our roots at BSW – talking with a worship leader about worship. We’ve been talking to academics and historians – which we will continue to do – but sometimes it feels good to throw it back and have a good ole worship leader conversation. Lizzie Morgan is a gifted young worship leader who grew up in the church and has been singing her whole life. She auditioned for Lauren Daigle, sang with Lauren, and has since been a part of tours with Maverick City, Red Worship, and various other groups.

I loved this conversati...

As a young worship leader, I used to ask myself the question: “Why is worship such a big deal?” Not in the sense of “God isn’t worthy of it…” but I realized there were no worship leaders in the Bible. Lots of singing. And our church gatherings are built around worship. And there’s a worship industry. And a constant stream of songs and songwriters. It’s a big deal in our modern church culture.

I consoled myself with the thought that God is worthy of it. We sing so much because he’s worthy. We write so many song...

Today’s conversation gets a little political. I’m talking with Matthew D. Taylor about his book The Violent Take it By Force: The Christian Movement that is Threatening Our Democracy.

That title may sound like an angry rant against anyone who voted for Donald Trump. Some sort of desperate ploy by a Democrat to take a cheap shot. It is absolutely not that. America is a democracy. Every US citizen has a right to vote for who they want to vote for. This is not a critique about Donald Trump or anyone who voted for him.