What does it mean to truly see in therapy? Not just to recognise a problem or follow a model, but to sense the subtle movements of relationship — the flicker of meaning between people, the quiet shifts that change the course of a conversation.

In this episode, Dr. Hugh Palmer, systemic family psychotherapist, trainer and writer, invites us into the art of expanded vision. Drawing on Gregory Bateson, William Blake, and decades of systemic practice, Hugh explores Fourfold Vision as a way of perceiving that blends evidence, theory, intuition and imagination into something alive, relational and de...

In this episode, we shine a spotlight on the Pears Family School, a pioneering Alternative Provision school in the UK that is redefining how we support children with complex emotional, behavioral, and mental health needs. Facing a national crisis in child mental health and a lack of joined-up services, the Pears Family School bridges the gap between education and mental health through a unique, systemic, and family-focused approach.

We are joined by Laura Lower and Maya Bell Kohli as we discover how the school’s founders, both experienced teachers and systemic family therapists, created a model that in...

In this episode, we are joined by pioneering systemic psychotherapist, organisational consultant, and author Christine Oliver for a rich conversation exploring systemic approaches to organisational life, leadership, and change.

Drawing from over 30 years of experience across the NHS, charities, international organisations, faith communities, and private consultancy, Christine reflects on how systemic and social constructionist ideas can help organisations navigate complexity, conflict, hierarchy, and uncertainty.

Together, we explore reflexive inquiry, relational leadership, organisational culture, moral story-making, appreciative inquiry, and the power of conversation in shaping teams and systems. Christine shares insights from her influential work in...

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we speak with Rick Murphy and Lisa Dvorjetz about their book A Systemic Approach to Integrative Counselling (2024) and the growing need to bring relational thinking into everyday therapeutic practice.

Together, we explore how familiar counselling models such as person-centred, psychodynamic, CBT, Gestalt, and action-based approaches can be reworked through systemic ideas of context, relationships, patterns, and meaning. Rather than locating distress solely within the individual, Rick and Lisa invite us to consider how problems are shaped and sustained through interaction, culture, family histories, and wider social systems.

We d...

Celebrating our 100th episode of The Systemic Way Podcast.

We took The Systemic Way to @EFTA-RELATES 2025 Congress in Lyon and stepped into a space shaped by change, tension, and possibility.

Across four days, we spoke with therapists, researchers, and practitioners working at the edges of systemic practice. You hear their reflections, their challenges, and the moments that stayed with them. From conversations on migration, trauma, and social justice, to explorations of family therapy, organisational work, and community resilience, this episode captures what it felt like to be in the room.

...

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we sit down with renowned psychotherapist, author, and educator Jan Winhall to explore the transformative power of the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model (FSPM). With over four decades of clinical experience, Jan invites us into a radically compassionate, body‑based understanding of trauma, addiction, and healing.

Together, we unpack how the body’s survival responses are not signs of pathology but intelligent adaptations—messages that deserve curiosity rather than shame. Jan shares the origins of the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model, how it integrates polyvagal theory with focusing-oriented therapy, and wh...

In this episode, we’re turning our attention to the UK drama Adolescence — a series that begins with a single, shocking event but quickly reveals a much wider web of responsibility.

Rather than focusing solely on the actions of one young person, the drama draws us into the interconnected systems surrounding him: family, school, peer culture, mental health services, and the criminal justice system.

Using a systemic psychotherapy lens, we’ll explore how meaning, behaviour, and risk are produced within relationships — and how patterns of communication, power, silence, and inaction shape what unfolds. We’ll look at no...

In Grandmotherland, Dr Judith Edwards offers an exploration of Grandmotherhood as an intergenerational, relational, and socially constructed position. Drawing on myth, fairy tales, family narratives, and contemporary lived experience, she examines how dominant cultural discourses shape expectations of grandmothers and organise family roles, boundaries, and power across generations. Judith attends to patterns of transmission, alliance, exclusion, and care, situating Grandmotherhood within wider socio-economic and cultural contexts—including the increasing reliance on grandmothers for childcare. Grandmotherland invites systemic practitioners and scholars to rethink grannyhood not as a fixed role, but as a dynamic position shaped by relationships, histories, and social st...

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we talk about age in the room—listening for it not as decline, but as presence, memory, and becoming. Drawing inspiration from Maya Angelou’s On Aging, where she writes of being “old as the hills, and far from done,” we explore lifecycle transitions, working with older people, and how a therapist’s age is read, misread, and positioned in the therapeutic relationship.

We reflect on age as a cultural and systemic story: how wisdom, power, invisibility, authority, and expectation are shaped across generations and communities. This is a conversation about the...

In this episode we speak with no other than Dr. Jaako Seikkula on this latest bookWhy Dialogue Does Cure: Explaining What Makes Dialogue Unprecedentedly Effective in Difficult Crises (2025). The book presents the core principles of Open Dialogue, a system of psychiatric care and dialogic psychotherapy that has spread to over 40 countries. Why Dialogue Does Cure explores the transformative power of Open Dialogue, a radically humanistic approach to mental health care developed in Western Lapland. This episode unpacks why dialogic practice—where clinicians, clients, families, and networks meet in shared conversation—can lead to recoveries unimaginable in conventional psychiatry.

To...

In this episode, we reflect on the deeply moving documentary White Nanny, Black Child (2023), which explores Britain’s “farming” system — a practice through which over 70,000 West African children were fostered by white British families between 1955 and 1995.

Through the voices of nine adults who reunite to share their experiences, the film opens up tender and painful reflections on identity, belonging, and survival. We listen to the echoes of care and silence that continue to shape lives long after childhood — and we explore how systems of care can become systems of control when infused with colonial legacies and racial...

In this very special episode we sit down with members of the DWP - Race Group (Shakira Nkanang, Calvin Malcom and John Burnham) as we turn our systemic lens on the iconic album by Tracy Chapman (Tracy Chapman 1988). 

We ask, how does Tracy Chapman's album provide a soundtrack for confronting race, power, and privilege in therapeutic practice?  What do the anthems of our lives reveal about the systems we live in? We unpack how "Talkin' 'bout a Revolution" isn't just a protest song, but a sharp analysis of how power maintains itself by dismissing dissent as a "wh...

In systemic psychotherapy we often focus on the words we use, but what about the sound of them? In this episode, we meet with systemic psychotherapist and social worker Jordan Makmihe to explore the subtle yet significant role of accent in therapeutic practice.

Our conversation considers how the nuances of our speech—the melody, the rhythm, the inflection—carry unspoken stories about identity, belonging, and power. We discuss how these vocal cues quietly influence the relationship between therapist and client, shaping perceptions and dynamics in ways that often go unexamined.

We gently unpack the concept of t...

In this thought-provoking episode, we sit down with therapist, trainer, supervisor and author Desa Markovic to explore her compelling paper on the Aspects of Reading (2021) - a model that invites practitioners, students, and educators into a deeper, more layered relationship with texts.

Desa guides us through a nuanced framework that separates and then interweaves four key reading positions: The Author’s View, The Reader’s Personal Response, Critique, and Self-Reflexivity. Together, we unpack how this model encourages readers to momentarily suspend judgment, identify personal biases, engage ethically, and r...

In this inspiring and thought-provoking episode, we sit down with peace activist, former Jain monk, and ecological visionary Satish Kumar to explore the profound power of Radical Love—the focus of his latest book.

Together, we dive into how love can be understood not just as a personal feeling, but as a systemic force capable of transforming families, communities, and entire societies. Satish shares his reflections on how love can shape education, economics, politics, healthcare, and environmental action—offering a bold invitation to reimagine social systems rooted in compassion, care, and connection.

Fr...

What if our biggest crises – from climate collapse to mental health – demand not simpler solutions, but a deeper embrace of complexity? Join us for a profound conversation with Nora Bateson, award-winning filmmaker, writer, and systems thinker.

Nora takes us inside the rich ecology of ideas explored in her groundbreaking book, Combining. Nora challenges us to see the world as a web of inseparable relationships, where every action ripples with incalculable consequences. She argues compellingly that tackling our "Polycrisis" requires understanding interdependence, sitting with ambiguity, and nurturing the vital, often unsee...

In this rich and wide-ranging conversation, we sit down with Umberta Telfener, President of EFTA, and Hans Christian Michaelsen, Vice President, to explore the heart of systemic practice across Europe.

Together, they unpack what EFTA (European Family Therapy Association) is, how it’s structured, and what it offers to both long-standing members and curious newcomers. We hear about their personal journeys into systemic therapy, the organization’s current goals, and the evolving landscape of family and systemic practice in response to global challenges—from climate change to social justice.

We also dive into the EFTA Task F...

In this episode, we speak with Taiwo Afuape and Sumita Dutta, Co-Directors of the Institute of Family Therapy in London, to explore the rich history and bold new direction of one of the UK’s leading centres for systemic practice. 

Together, we reflect on IFT’s legacy, its role in shaping generations of family therapists, and how its current leadership is reimagining training and practice through a lens of social justice, inclusivity, and innovation. This is a conversation about change, continuity, and the power of collective vision.

https://ift.org.uk/

Join us for an inspiring and thought-provoking interview with Dr. Harlene Anderson, a trailblazer in systemic psychotherapy and co-founder of the Collaborative-Dialogical Approach. In this deep dive, we explore her revolutionary ideas—from challenging traditional therapy hierarchies to redefining power, knowledge, and the role of language in healing.  

We’ll unpack:  
- The origins of her work—What drew her to the Mental Research Institute (MRI) and constructivist ideas? Who were her early influences?  
- The birth of the Collaborative-Dialogical Approach—How did she and Harry Goolishian shift therapy from "expert diagnosis" to conversational meaning-making?  
- The my...

Join us in this insightful episode as we sit down with Dr. John Launer, a retired GP, family therapist, and pioneer in integrating systemic and narrative approaches into healthcare. Dr. Launer shares his journey from general practice to becoming a leading figure in training healthcare professionals to use therapeutic conversations in their everyday work.

Discover the transformative power of Conversations Inviting Change (CIC), a method Dr. Launer co-developed to help clinicians balance the normative demands of medicine with the reflective, curiosity-driven practices of systemic and narrative therapy. Learn about the Seven Cs framework—Co...

Join us for an inspiring and personal conversation with John Burnham, a true trailblazer in systemic psychotherapy and a visionary in the field of family therapy. With a career spanning over five decades, John has dedicated his life to transforming the way we understand and approach mental health, particularly in the context of eating disorders and family dynamics.

In this insightful podcast episode, John Burnham, reflects on his decades-long career, sharing personal and professional experiences that have shaped his approach to systemic psychotherapy. He discusses the importance of relationships, both in therapy and in life, emphasizing how...

In this episode, we sit down with Nick Putman, founder of Open Dialogue UK and a leading force in adapting the Open Dialogue approach to the UK. As a UKCP registered psychotherapist and certified Open Dialogue practitioner and trainer, Nick shares his journey of learning directly from pioneers like Jaakko Seikkula and Jorma Ahonen, and how he has worked to bring this revolutionary approach to the NHS and beyond.

We explore Nick’s visits to Western Lapland to study Open Dialogue in practice, his work running training programmes internationally, and his contributions as co-editor of...

In this episode, we’re joined by attendees from the Hayaa’ Network’s groundbreaking conference on neurodiversity, held in Singapore in February 2024. Together, we reflect on the latest advancements in practice, research, and theory in this rapidly evolving area of mental health, all through a systemic lens. Featuring insights from keynote speakers Dr. Marwa Azab, Ms. Nora Bateson, Ms. Maimunah Mosli, and Dr. Mairi Evans, this conversation dives into the intersections of neurodiversity and systemic practice. We explore the complexities shaping the experiences of neurodivergent individuals and their families, offering fresh perspectives on the interplay between mental health and neurod...

Join us for a compelling exploration of, The Divided Island, a groundbreaking documentary film that delves into the complex history, identity, and shared humanity of Cyprus. In this episode, we sit down with the film’s creators - director Cey Sesiguzel (Turkish Cypriot) and co-producer Andreas Tokkallos (Greek Cypriot) - as they reflect on their journey of collaboration and friendship, the stories that shaped their film, and the ways art can bridge even the deepest divides. 

We are also joined by Dr Emilios Lemoniatis, a consultant child psychiatrist, systemic psychotherapist and Cypriot Greek who joins us...

In this episode, we sit down with David Denborough, a leading figure in narrative therapy and community work, to explore the fascinating journey that brought him to this transformative approach. David shares the early influences that connected his values and beliefs with narrative ideas, offering insight into the foundational stories that shaped his practice.

We dive into his relationship with the Dulwich Centre, the renowned hub of narrative therapy, uncovering how he became part of this vibrant community and the ways it bridges local and global communities. David reflects on the bi-directional flow of influence between the...

In this episode with speak with Dr Dwight Turner who shares his thoughts, ideas and reflections on his two books Intersections of privilege and otherness in counselling and psychotherapy: Mockingbird (2021) and The Psychology of Supremacy: Imperium (2023).

Dwight shares his personal stories around his early life, career and training as a psychotherapist weaving through themes of race, power, intersectionality and privilege. He talks about the creation of otherness and ways to deepen our understanding and relationship to the concepts so that we can develop anti-oppressive and safe spaces for people we meet, live and work with. He invites...

In this episode we are joined by the Association for Family Therapy (AFT)'s Diversity Working Party (DWP) - Race Group. 

The group share their experiences of meeting and working together and their ongoing commitment to bring race to the forefront of our practice. The members talk about the complexity of grappling with this. Alongside this, they share the energy, passion and playfulness with which they endeavour to create safety to explore race in a meaningful way that can support changes in training, therapeutic practice and organisational contexts. 

We are joined by Shakira Maknoon, Prudencia Wo...

In this episode we talk with Khara Croswaite Brindle about her book Understanding Ruptured Mother-Daughter Relationships.

We hear about how therapists can prepare to address ruptured mother daughter relationships in a therapeutic space. Whether it is repairing the estrangement or preparing for it, Khara takes us through the cycle of estrangement and offers tools to manage the different stages. We focus on areas such as identifying the cycle, challenges of each stage and how to attend to these in a skilful and therapeutic way.

Khara bio:

Khara Croswaite Brindle is a...

In this episode we are joined by Ozlem Kose PhD to discuss an article she co-wrote with Fatma Arıcı-Şahin & Ahmet Abakay, A Tale of Three Sisters: A Movie Analysis from Critically Informed Family Therapy Perspective. Journal of Feminist Family Therapy, 33(4), 315-329 (Kose et al 2019).

Özlem Köse, an associate with Couple and Family Therapy Montreal, holds a Ph.D. in medical family therapy and is a registered clinical counsellor boasting 15 years’ experience in individual, couple and family therapy.

Ozlem invites us to talk with her about the film A Tale of Thre...

Dr Jamila Holcomb is a marriage and family therapist and supervisior in Florida joins us to discuss racial trauma. Given the current climate and the ongoing wrestle with racism and its impact on communities and individuals this episode offers essential tools for anti racist practice.

Jamila takes us through the important area of racial trauma in clinical settings. We hear her talk about defining racial trauma, barriers to addressing it, clinical best practices for therapists and supervisors and a call to the field!

https://www.holcombcounselingandconsulting.com/

In this episode we speak with Marianne Le Coyte Grinney about mental health and tech. Marianne is the founder of Held Mind an organisation that offers training, support and consultation on mental health, sobriety and recovery on platforms such as web 3 and discord. She takes us through her personal and professional journey with the world of tech and the need to understand this world and why mental health matters in these communities. We hear about the culture of these platforms, inclusivity and the growing dilemmas and conversations around making these spaces safe and accessible to everyone.

Bio:<...

In this episode of The Systemic Lens, we delve into the enchanting world of Disney's "Encanto" through the lens of systemic psychotherapy. Join us as we explore the complex dynamics of the Madrigal family, analysing how intergenerational trauma, familial roles, and cultural expectations shape their magical and emotional experiences. 

We examine the dual nature of the family's gifts as both blessings and burdens, the impact of secrecy and communication breakdowns, and the journey of healing and reconciliation. Discover how the symbolism in the film represents psychological and emotional states and how Mirabel's unique role highlights themes of s...

Nsimire Aimee Bisimwa is a  Highly Specialist Systemic & Family Psychotherapist, course lead & lecturer at Essex University & Tavistock Centre and visiting lecturer at University College London. 

Our home is the theme for Refugee Week in 2024. In this special episode, we are dedicating our discussion to exploring and highlighting the crucial work being done to support refugees and young asylum seekers. We have the privilege of speaking with Nsimire, a leading professional in the field, who will share her direct experiences in building supportive relationships with refugees and also challenging the single stories that can dominate the fields de...

David Pocock , Systemic Family Psychotherapist, Psychoanalytic Psychotherapist, author and lecturer, joins us to discuss his influential paper, "A Philosophy of Practice for Systemic Psychotherapy: The Case for Critical Realism." (2015) In this session, we revisit the paper almost ten years after its initial publication to examine its enduring themes and its significant contribution to the field of family therapy. David explains what critical realism is and how it manifests in therapeutic practice, highlighting its role in bridging the gap between structuralism and post-structuralism and combines moderate realism with moderate constructionism. 

David provides an accessible and insightful overview of t...

In this episode we are joined by EFTA President, Umberta Telfener, as she shares with us her legacy and connection to the development of the systemic field. She talks about her relationships with some of the pioneers in Systemic Family Therapy across the globe.

We hear her passionate views on combining systemic interventions and psychotherapy as we explore the integral relationship between them. Umberta also discusses first and second order change, systemic complexity, collusion and utilising systemic thinking to create meaningful interventions for people.

Bio:

Umberta Telfener, health & clinical psychologist, teacher...

In today's episode we have the privilege to speak with Dr. Yoa'd Ghanadry-Hakim  who is a clinical psychologist, human rights activist and supervisor and has been active in the field of mental health in Palestine for 25 years.  

Dr Yoa’d joins us to talk about her experiences of working in Palestine and generously shares her professional journey and the many factors that have contributed to her development through the context of living in an occupied land. Yoa'd invites us to reconsider the dominance of the Western approach of psychology in a collectivist society and to recognise the valu...

Amanda Middleton joins us to talk in depth about her keynote speech/article, Adventures in time, gender and therapeutic practice. Embracing a queer systemic way of working with gender expansive families. 

Amanda shares with us ways to understand gender and sexuality that are away from binary discourses and we discuss why this matters for inclusive therapeutic practice. She takes us on an adventure about her work, projects and passions on utilising a queer systemic approach that is steeped with theory, history and insights to grow our knowledge in this important area.

Topics covered include:

This episode focuses on social constructionism with one of the leading figures in the field, Kenneth J. Gergen Ph.D.

We hear about how radical the ideas were at the time of its conceptiopn and the people who believed in its contribution to psychology and supported its evolution. Ken tells us his personal and professional stories of the history and development of his key ideas within social constructionism alongside some of the challenges when sharing with the wider field.  Ken discussed the key elements of its application in the therapeutic context and his futures hopes.

In this episode we discuss the Queensland Institute of Family Therapy's (QIFT) meta framework for integrative practice. Founders, Kate and Leonie talk about how practitioners are embracing and integrative approach and their experience of developing the framework. 

Topics covered include:

For any training enquiries related to:

• Key Skills in Family Therapy
• Working Safely with Families and Trau...

This episode is about Shadi Shahnavaz’s insightful book “Working systematically with refugee families and couples: exploring trauma, resilience and culture” We discuss areas such as:
-Effects of trauma
-Seeking therapeutic help
-Cross cultural therapy
-Refugees lived experiences
-Frameworks for engaging & supporting families and couples
Shadi guides us through her personal and professional journey of working in this area and enlightens her process with case studies and resonances to develop compassionate & effective practice


Bio:

Dr Shadi Shahnavaz is a social worker and systemic therapist. She has worked...