Zero Knowledge

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By: Zero Knowledge Podcast

Zero Knowledge is a podcast which goes deep into the tech that will power the emerging decentralised web and the community building this. Covering the latest in zero knowledge research and applications, the open web as well as future technologies and paradigms that promise to change the way we interact — and transact — with one another online. Zero Knowledge is hosted by Anna Rose Follow the show at @ZeroKnowledgefm (https://twitter.com/zeroknowledgefm) or @AnnaRRose (https://twitter.com/AnnaRRose) If you like the Zero Knowledge Podcast: Join us on Telegram (https://t.me/joinchat/TORo7aknkYNLHmCM) Support our Gitcoin Grant (https://gitc...

Local-First with grjte and Goblin Oats
Last Wednesday at 1:00 PM

In this episode, Anna Rose and Nico Mohnblatt speak with Goblin Oats from Tonk and grjte from Bain Capital Crypto to explore the emerging world of local-first architecture. Goblin shares the evolution of Tonk from an experimental lab working on blockchain games to a product that enables anyone to build personalised local-first software using natural language. grjte discusses her Groundmist project exploring personal data lakes and the intersection between local-first systems and the AT Protocol. The conversation explores the technical foundations of local-first architecture, including Conflict-free Replicated Data Types (CRDTs), parallels with blockchain systems, and how ZK proofs show up...


Bringing ID Onchain with Self
07/02/2025

In this episode, Anna Rose speaks with Florent Tavernier from Self and Marek Olszewski from Self and Celo to explore how Self are bringing identity onchain using ZK, the Sybil protection that offers, and the origins of OpenPassport. The discussion covers Self's approach to supporting different forms of ID, the challenges of disparate cryptographic standards, and how government signatures can be used to bootstrap onchain identity systems.  Related links: Self Protocol on X/Twitter Episode 364: AI and ZK Auditing with David Wong Episode 363: Bringing ZK to Google Wallet with Abhi and Matteo Episode 358: Building ZK Registries Onchain with Rarimo Episode 93: L...


ZK in Sui & zkAt with Kostas Kryptos
06/25/2025

In this episode, Anna Rose and Tarun Chitra catch up with Kostas Kryptos from Mysten Labs to explore the latest ZK innovations being built on Sui. Kostas shares updates on zkLogin and introduces zkAt (ZK Authenticator), a new research project enabling programmable and updatable access control for accounts where Groth16's trusted setup and the generated toxic waste is used in a very novel way.  This discussion also covers Sui's ambitious plans to become quantum-ready, including their innovative approach to transitioning existing EdDSA accounts to post-quantum security using STARKs without requiring users to change their addresses. They touch on ZK T...


AI and ZK Auditing with David Wong
06/18/2025

In this episode, Anna sits down with David Wong from zkSecurity to discuss the impact of AI on the field of zero-knowledge auditing. David shares how his team is integrating AI agents into their workflow, the opportunities and challenges this brings, and how the role of the human auditor is evolving as AI becomes more capable. They also cover the unique aspects of auditing ZK-based systems, how this is different from smart contract auditing, and the broader implications of AI for security in cryptography and blockchain. The conversation touches on the ethical considerations of AI in security, the future of...


Bringing ZK to Google Wallet with Abhi and Matteo
06/11/2025

In this episode, Anna and Nico speak with Abhi Shelat and Matteo Frigo from Google about their work integrating zero-knowledge proofs into the Google Wallet. They discuss the technical decisions behind the Anonymous Credentials for ECDSA system, including the challenge of designing a proof system where proving must be efficient enough to run on the client device in a large-scale consumer application, and how they design a system using sumcheck and Ligero to overcome NTT issues. The conversation also touches on the process of standardization, the return of ZK to its privacy roots, and the broader significance of seeing advanced...


zkTLS with Maddy from Reclaim
06/04/2025

In this episode, Anna speaks with Madhavan (Maddy) Malolan from Reclaim Protocol about his work on zkTLS and its applications in web data verification. Maddy shares the journey of building Reclaim, from initial attempts at implementing DECO to developing their current proxy-based solution. The conversation explores the technical challenges of implementing zero-knowledge proofs for HTTPS connections, comparing proxy and MPC approaches, and discussing security considerations. Maddy explains how Reclaim is bringing ZK technology to mainstream applications, focusing on three key verticals: education verification, employment history, and financial background checks. Related links: Episode 353: Making ZK More Human with ZK Email TLSNotary ...


Bonus: Spotlight your project with ZK Podcast
05/27/2025

There’s no interview this week, but we have some ad spot availability coming up!

If you want to reach a highly technical ZK audience and get eyes on your project, tooling, hiring, and more, get in touch at sponsorships@zeroknowledge.fm.

If you would like to donate individually to the show, our eth address is here: 0xE2C080047213C1d8cDf2099E0B07479C5D9cee8a


Implementing LatticeFold with Matthew and Albert from Nethermind
05/14/2025

In this episode, Anna and Nico speak with Matthew Klein and Albert Garreta from Nethermind about their work implementing and advancing lattice-based cryptography systems, particularly focusing on folding schemes and their applications in zero-knowledge proofs. Matthew and Albert share insights from their implementation of LatticeFold and discuss the evolution of lattice-based systems, including newer developments like LatticeFold+ and Neo. The conversation explores the unique challenges and opportunities of working with lattice-based constructions, from performance optimizations to post-quantum security considerations. They also dive into their work on post-quantum signatures for Ethereum, light zkML solutions, and the Zinc project, which offers a...


Quantum Punks with Alex and Nicola
05/07/2025

In this episode, Anna and Guillermo are joined by Alex Obadia and Nicola Greco, co-authors of the Quantum Punks Manifesto, for a discussion at the intersection of quantum technology and cryptography. They explore the cultural and technical gaps between the quantum and crypto communities, sharing the story behind the manifesto, their vision for bridging these worlds and the applications that such a combination could unlock.   Related links: Quantum Punks Manifesto Episode 288: Quantum Cryptography with Or Sattath Episode 357: Quantum Engineering with Jelena Vučković Paris Workshop Video Playlist Teleport.Best Flashbots Project Aria Protocol Labs Conjugate Coding BB84: Quantum cryptography: Public key...


Lattice-based ZK Systems with Vadim Lyubashevsky
04/30/2025

In this episode, Anna and Nico speak with Vadim Lyubashevsky, research scientist at IBM Research, about the evolving field of lattice-based cryptography and its role in zero-knowledge systems. Vadim shares the history and mathematical foundations of lattices, and explains how they might be used to build post-quantum secure ZK proofs and SNARKs. The conversation covers the unique challenges of adapting lattice techniques to zero-knowledge, explores the tradeoffs relative to hash-based constructions, and highlights the importance of developing quantum-safe standards for the future of cryptography. Related links: Episode 345: Latest ZK Research with Dan Boneh Episode 288: Quantum Cryptography with Or Sattath LaBRADOR...


Building ZK Registries Onchain with Rarimo
04/23/2025

This week, Anna speaks with Lasha Antadze, co-founder of Rarilabs and Rarimo, about the evolution of digital identity systems. Lasha shares his journey from working with government eID systems to building decentralized identity solutions using zero-knowledge proofs. The conversation explores how Rarimo is taking a fundamentally different approach to identity verification by keeping all processing client-side, from passport scanning to biometric verification. This enables new use cases like censorship-resistant voting systems and privacy-preserving account recovery, while avoiding the traditional pitfalls of centralized identity providers. The discussion also covers the challenges of building trust in cryptographic systems, the potential applications of...


Quantum Engineering with Jelena Vučković
04/16/2025

In this episode, Anna and Guillermo speak with Professor Jelena Vučković from Stanford's Nanoscale and Quantum Photonics Lab about the fascinating world of quantum engineering. Jelena explains different quantum technology platforms and how quantum entanglement serves as the foundation for various applications such as eavesdropping detection. They explore how researchers are developing chip-scale quantum systems and the significant implications these technologies have for secure communication and cryptography.   Related links: Episode 288: Quantum Cryptography with Or Sattath WHIR: Reed–Solomon Proximity Testing with Super-Fast Verification BB84: Quantum cryptography: Public key distribution and coin tossing BBM92: Quantum Cryptography Without Bell's Theorem Stanford Nanos...


ZK Benchmarks with Conner Swann
04/09/2025

In this episode Anna explores the contentious topic of ZK benchmarking with Conner Swann, founder of ProofLab. Drawing parallels with AI's development, they explore how tools like ProofLab could help standardize benchmarking across dimensions like speed, cost, and security. The conversation touches on the importance of formal verification and real-world workload testing, while considering how better benchmarking could accelerate ZK adoption and potentially lead to ZK's own 'ChatGPT moment' Related links: zkSummit The Zero-Knowledge Community Survey NoirHack Noir ethProofs Designing Optimistic Interoperability with Nomad Trusted Setup Ceremonies Explored Anna’s Post on Benchmarking The path to secure and efficient zkVMs: Ho...


Coordinating Provers with Norbert from ZkCloud
04/02/2025

In this episode Anna dives back into the topic of prover networks & prover marketplaces with Norbert Vadas, Head of Product at ZkCloud.  They kick off by mapping out different actors in the ZK supply chain, and then cover the variety of approaches and economic models behind prover marketplaces. They explore the ZkCloud system before diving into Norbert’s perspective on the future of large-scale, industrial-grade ZK proving and what that will unlock. Related links: ZKV ZK Hack Kraków Mina Snarketplace Mina: What are SNARK workers and the Snarketplace Gevulot ZkCloud EthCC Paris: Toghrul Maharramov - Multi-Verifiers as a Hedge Agai...


The Founding of Zero Knowledge Systems with Austin Hill
03/25/2025

This week, we present the third installment in the Zero Knowledge Systems story. In this episode, Anna chats with Austin Hill, one of the original founders of Zero Knowledge Systems. They explore the company’s early days, Austin’s background in tech, and what this scene in Montreal was like in the late ’90s. The conversation covers fundraising during the dot-com boom, Zero Knowledge Systems’s ambitious vision for internet privacy, its flagship product Freedom, and how the company pivoted from a broad individual privacy mission to a more focused B2B approach. They cover Austin’s journey after ZKS—including ho...


Making ZK More Human with ZK Email
03/19/2025

This week Anna catches up with Aayush Gupta from ZK Email, covering the latest developments and real-world applications of the ZK Email protocol. They explore how the project serves as a bridge between Web2 systems and Web3 infrastructure and go on to discuss use cases like wallet-based account recovery, anonymous reputation-based communication, and digital provenance verification. This was an exploration of novel ZK use cases, which is something we love to cover - so we hope you enjoy it! Related links: ZK Email Website ZKP2P with Brian & Richard Modular Summit 3.0 Panel: ZK Applications ZK12: Future of ZK Applications with...


Learning ZK with Jeffrey from RareSkills
03/12/2025

This week Anna chats with Jeffrey Scholz, founder of RareSkills. They discuss onboarding developers into ZK and dive into RareSkills' education program via The ZK Book and their ZK bootcamps. They explore strategies for breaking down complex topics, decisions on curriculum design, tool selection, and methodologies for enabling self-sufficient learning. A great listen for the listeners who want to learn ZK and are trying to figure out how to approach the challenge. Related links: RareSkills Website ZK HACK Website ZK HACK Whiteboard Sessions RareSkills ZK Book Jeffrey Scholz on Medium Jeffrey Scholz’s course on Udemy Consensys Bootcamp in 2021 Encode Cl...


Zero Knowledge Systems, Privacy and Security with Jonathan Wilkins
03/05/2025

This week Anna jumps back into the story of Zero Knowledge Systems with Jonathan Wilkins, cofounder Blockstream and Cloaked Services and previous employee of ZKS back in 2000. They explore the emergence of security culture in the 1990s, what led Jonathan to join Zero Knowledge Systems and his experience working on projects such as the Freedom Network. They discuss the office atmosphere and the research lab before catching up on the work Jonathan has focused on since then. Key concepts we see in the ZK community today were first pioneered by the Zero Knowledge Systems research team and we hope to...


ZK in Solana with Mert Mumtaz
02/26/2025

This week Anna and Tarun chat with Mert Mumtaz. Mert is the co-founder and CEO of Helius and is known for his contributions to the Solana ecosystem. They explore Mert’s background, his entry into the space, and his experiences during the 2022 market downturn and subsequent recovery. The conversation covers Solana’s positioning within the broader blockchain landscape and includes an overview of emerging ZK projects in the ecosystem. Related links: Zero-Knowledge Proofs: Its Applications on Solana Episode 135 - Look into Solana Solana projects mentioned: Backpack, Anza, Gido, Jupiter  ZK projects mentioned: Phantom, Elusiv, Light Protocol, Dark Protocol  Solana Token Extens...


ZODA & The Accidental Computer
02/19/2025

Read transcript This week Anna catches up with Nico, Guillermo and Alex from Bain Capital Crypto to discuss two of their recent works; ZODA: Zero-Overhead Data Availability by the trio and The Accidental Computer by Alex & Guille. The group starts with a discussion about how papers like FRIDA and Foundations of Data Availability Sampling inspired ZODA and then cover the innovations presented in ZODA itself. They wrap up with a discussion about The Accidental Computer, and in doing so tease out some of the fundamental concepts in current ZK research.   Related links: ZK Podcast: Disclosures ZODA: Zero-Overhead Data Availability by A...


Taking ZK IRL with Cursive
02/12/2025

This week, Anna and Nico chat with Andrew Lu and Vivek Bhupatiraju from Cursive.  They map out the timeline of their in-person activations and experiments using programmable cryptography, which they have been running since late 2023. By quickly developing small applications and products to test with real users, they have gathered tangible data about these innovations at various live conferences worldwide, including our own flagship events, zkSummit11 and zkSummit12. They share the challenges and insights gained from these experimental products. Additionally, they share the concepts that inspired their innovations, such as digital pheromones and narrowcasting. Related links: Zupass ZK for web2 i...


Back to the Future with Zero Knowledge
02/05/2025

We’re back with a new look and a new jingle! In this episode, ZK Podcast returns, and host Anna Rose shares a story from her past that strangely connects to the present day and the name "Zero Knowledge." Listen in as we kick off the show once again. Applications for zkSummit13 are now open, apply for your spot here. Check out the latest jobs in ZK at the ZK Podcast jobs board. Zero Knowledge Systems on Wikipedia IF YOU LIKE WHAT WE DO: Find all our links here! @ZeroKnowledge | Linktree Subscribe to our podcast newsletter Follow us on X @ze...


ZK Podcast is Hiring!!
01/16/2025

A quick update from the Zero Knowledge Podcast: The show is set to resume at the beginning of February, with exciting episodes and topics we can't wait to share with you!

In the meantime, the team is hiring for two roles—a Community Marketing Manager to amplify the podcast's reach authentically and a Strategic Growth Lead to strengthen the business side of operations. If you are a potential candidate, please do apply over on the ZK Jobs Board!

As 2025 approaches, the podcast aims to further explore zero-knowledge technology's potential to shape the future and invites th...


ZK in Review: Decoding 2024 & Predicting 2025
12/23/2024

Summary

This week, Anna catches up with cohosts, Tarun, Nico and Guillermo to do a look back at the zk research and applications that came out in 2024. They go on to discuss the challenges facing the ecosystem. And they wrap with a brief look forward, covering what to expect in ZK in 2025.

This will be the last ep of 2024, thank you for joining us this year!

Further Reading:

ZK12: Welcome to zkSummit & Sponsor Intro - Anna RoseCircle STARKs by Haböck, Levit and PapiniStarkWare Unveils New 'Stwo' Cryptographic Prover That's 'Blazingly Fast'ZK12: WHIR: R...


Latest ZK Research with Dan Boneh
11/27/2024

Summary

In this week’s episode, Anna catches up with Dan Boneh, Professor of Computer Science and Electrical Engineering, Stanford University. They discuss the focus of his research today, covering new ZK research problems and themes. This includes work on lattice-based SNARKs, ZK for content provenance, ZK in the FHE context, updates on ZK in ML and more!


Here’s some additional links for this episode:

Episode 256: New ZK Use Cases with Dan BonehEpisode 100: Dan Boneh on the past, present & future of cryptographyEpisode 341: coSNARKs with Ais and Lukas from TACEOLaBRADOR: Compact Proo...


ZK Events 2024 Recap
10/16/2024

Summary

This week, Anna and Nico take a look back at some of the ZK Events produced in 2024 by the ZK Podcast, ZK Hack and other adjacent projects. Starting with the live ZK Jargon Decoder hosted in January and spanning the 10 months since, Anna and Nico share behind-the-scenes anecdotes, highlight key talks from the events and share some insight into how the programs for the zkSummit events are created. They wrapped with a summary of some of the themes in ZK that got them talking this year and are tracking going forward.

Don’t forget, th...


Mastering MPC & Memes with Mikerah
10/09/2024

Summary

This week Anna chats with Mikerah Quintyne-Collins from HashCloak and Stoffel Labs. They discuss how Mikerah got her start in the crypto space and then dive into the work she did at ChainSafe and eventually at HashCloak. They cover Mikerah’s work on privacy preserving tech like ZK, TEE and MPC and learn about what drives her tweet game and the wisdom she has picked up over the years as a technical founder, driven by curiosity… and memes.

Here’s some additional links for this episode:

ZK Mesh@badcryptobitch TwitterEpisode 40: Benedikt Bünz on Bull...


ZK Whiteboard Sessions Season 2 and a ZK Pod Pause!
10/04/2024

Just sharing 2 updates:

1) the ZK Whiteboard sessions are BACK with a second season! These videos will be released every 2 weeks for the next 3 months on ZK Hack channels -

See Season 1 videos here: https://zkhack.dev/whiteboard/ See Season 2 Module 1 here: https://zkhack.dev/whiteboard/s2m1/

2) The Zero Knowledge Podcast (aka this show!) will take a pause on the weekly cadence of the show starting Oct 16th until the end of 2024.

Expect last 2 episodes on Oct 9 and Oct 16 There may be some additional episodes released this year (but no plans yet) Keep...


Catch up with Zac and Ariel
10/02/2024

Summary

This week Anna catches up with Zac Williamson & Ariel Gabizon from Aztec. They cover what each has been working on over the last year, Zac shared updates about the development of Aztec and the finalization of their underlying ZK system: MegaPlonk. Ariel discussed his latest research on IVC with his publications of the ProtoGalaxy and Stackproofs works and how properties of this systems brought him and Zac to start working together again.

Here’s some additional links for this episode:

Episode 273: History of Plonk, Noir, and the building of Aztec 3 Episode 274: SNARKs: A Tr...


coSNARKs with Ais and Lukas from TACEO
09/25/2024

Summary

This week Anna and Nico chat with Lukas Helminger and Ais Connolly from TACEO.

They discuss Lukas & Ais’ early work in cryptography and privacy preserving technologies, the founding of TACEO and their recent work on coSNARKs - or Collaborative SNARKs - that combine MPC and ZK. They explore how these coSNARKs are created, their coCircom language, the characteristics of these systems as well as how they can be applied in the real world.

Here’s some additional links for this episode:

TACEO TACEO Docs TACEO GitHub Hashing it out: coSNARKs at TACE...


Is Cosmos Dead? A critical look with Zaki Manian
09/18/2024

Summary

This week Anna and Zaki Manian dive into the Cosmos ecosystem and ask the question: is Cosmos Dead? They explore key events, teams and players who worked on Cosmos during different eras before teasing out the strengths and structural flaws that made the project what it is today. The conversation wraps with a discussion around new initiatives aimed at reviving the ecosystem and aligning factions in Cosmos together towards a central goal.

Here’s some additional links for this episode:

Episode 286: Paris 2023 Recap with Uma, Zaki and TarunEpisode 263: Cosmos, Sommelier and Emerging Assets wi...


TEEs with Andrew Miller
09/11/2024

Summary

In this week’s episode, Anna and Tarun catch up with Andrew Miller. They cover his early work on consensus, ZK and MPC before switching focus to the topic of his current work: TEEs. They map his evolving opinion on TEEs and explore why they could be seen as an optimal solution to many of the blockchain challenges.

Here’s some additional links for this episode:

Andrew Miller worksSoK: Research Perspectives and Challenges for Bitcoin and Cryptocurrencies by Bonneau, Miller, Clark, Narayanan, Kroll, Felten Zerocash: Decentralized Anonymous Payments from Bitcoin by Ben-Sasson, Chiesa, Garm...


On Trust Infrastructure with Arnaud Schenk
09/04/2024

Summary

This week Anna and Nico chat with Arnaud Schenk, one of the original co-founders of Aztec and creator of the Polaris Fellowship. They discuss Arnaud’s recent blog post ‘On Trust Infrastructure’, exploring the down sides of a trustless system, the need to make online community building more possible and how programmable cryptography may play a role in these solutions. They explore the history of computer culture, the rejection of institutions by mid-90s internet culture and how the seeds for this were set by the 60s counterculture.

Here’s some additional links for this epi...


Restaking Research with Naveen & Tarun
08/28/2024

Summary

In this week’s episode Anna and Tarun chat with Naveen Durvasula about his recent work ‘Robust Restaking Networks’. They discuss Naveen’s early work on matching markets and how this led him to work on mechanism design before exploring how the concepts of restaking were first presented, and how both Naveen and Tarun have been working to better model the mechanisms underpinning restaking, to understand how they work and how they can be optimized.

Further Reading:

Robust Restaking Networks by Naveen Durvasula and Tim RoughgardenEigenLayer: The Restaking Collective EigenLayer TeamGeneral Bio + Previous Research...


ZK in Celestia with Connor O’Hara
08/21/2024

Summary

In this week’s episode, Anna chats with Connor O’Hara from Celestia. After discussing the latest ZK Hack Montréal event where Connor was a judge, they dive into his professional background, the ecosystems he has been a part of and what led him to work on Celestia. They then discuss various ZK-focused initiatives within the Celestia ecosystem.

Here’s some additional links for this episode:


Episode 311: The Launch of Celestia and Beyond

03:22 ZK Hack Montréal

08:08 ZK Hack Devfolio

24:33 Episode 151: John Adler on...


Groth16, IVC and Formal Verification with Nexus
08/14/2024

Summary

In this week’s episode, Anna chats with Jens Groth and Daniel Marin from Nexus. They catch up on all things Groth16 with the author himself before diving into a variety topics, such as formal verification in the context of ZKPs, the Nexus architecture, the benefits and challenges of building a system from the ground up, folding and IVC plus the properties these offer in a zkVM context and much more.

Here’s some additional links for this episode:

ZKProof Conference in Berlin Nova: Recursive Zero-Knowledge Arguments from Folding Schemes by Kothapalli, Setty, and...


Bonus: zkSummit 12
08/07/2024

Hey! There is no episode this week, but wanted to share an update about zkSummit 12 - happening on Oct 8 in Lisbon.

If you want to join, be sure to apply to attend.

If you want to apply to speak, the deadline to apply is Aug 15th.

Both application to attend and the application to speak are in the same form that can be found @ www.zksummit.com


ZK Research Update with Joe Bonneau
07/31/2024

Summary

In this week’s episode, Anna and Guille catch up with Joe Bonneau, Assistant Professor at NYU and Research Partner at a16z crypto research. They discuss the research Joe has been working on since he was last on the show in 2019, including Naysayer proofs, Zero-Knowledge Middleboxes, Sealed-Bid Auctions, and other ZK-related research projects to date. Here’s some additional links for this episode:   Episode 103: Exploring VDFs with Joseph Bonneau Bitcoin and Cryptocurrency Technologies by Narayanan, Bonneau, Felten, Miller and Goldfeder Verifiable Delay Functions Dan Boneh, Joseph Bonneau, Benedikt Bunz, and Ben Fisch Naysayer proofs by Seres, Glaes...


Verifiable SQL, Reckle Trees and ZK Coprocessing with Lagrange Labs
07/24/2024

Summary

In this week’s episode Anna chats with Ismael Hishon-Rezaizadeh, Founder and CEO at Lagrange Labs and Charalampos (Babis) Papamanthou, Head of Research at Lagrange and Co-Director of the Applied Cryptography Lab at Yale University. They revisit the concepts of zk-powered coprocessors and dive into the work that Charalampos did previous to joining Lagrange on Verifiable SQL. They then explore how this is incorporated into the Lagrange coprocessor system, the work they are doing on Reckle Trees, future work and what all this enables for dApp developers. They discuss their new prover marketplace, the general state of in...


Brussels catch up with Hart from Across
07/18/2024

Summary

In this week’s episode, Anna and Tarun sit down with Hart Lambur irl at EthCC week in Brussels. They start by exploring Hart’s project Across - a cross-chain interoperability solution and sister project to Uma. They explore the Across construction, the tradeoff space and how this compares to other interop solutions. Then, in ZK Podcast tradition, the group shift gears with a few drinks and explore thoughtful observations on the week in Brussels. Here’s some additional links for this episode: Hart Lambur’s Twitter Uma Website Uma Docs Across Protocol Website Across Protocol Medium Schellin...