Macro N Cheese

Our friend Daniel Conceição is back for his sixth(!) time on Macro N Cheese. He and Steve share their critique of "neutral" or academic MMT that avoids class analysis. Understanding a government's monetary capacity is meaningless without using that knowledge as a weapon for class struggle against an oppressive economic system. 

Daniel shares his experiences in Buenos Aires, describing a city with grand public infrastructure (a legacy of Peronism) now filled with poverty due to austerity. He dismantles the myth that President Javier Milei's austerity policies tamed inflation. Instead, he argues the temporary stabilization was due to a...

** Tuesday evening, Bob will join our weekly online gathering where we’ll listen to the podcast together and discuss. Bring your questions for him. September 9 at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/1HA3nd_5QFSFzBe_cGiHpw 

This is Bob Hockett’s 12th visit to Macro N Cheese. Back in 2022, in an episode discussing the collapse of the major crypto exchange platform FTX, Bob gave us a useful rule of thumb: 

“The irony is that in every one of these cases there is a clue in the name o...

In our 14th episode with Australian economist Bill Mitchell, the conversation focuses on the MMT perspective on international trade. Bill explains what is meant by the statement “imports are a benefit, and exports are a cost,” where it fits into the history of economic thought, and some of its implications. 

A significant portion of the conversation is dedicated to explaining the crucial shift from the Bretton Woods fixed exchange rate system to the modern system of floating exchange rates after 1971. Bill clarifies that in a floating regime, a currency-issuing government is not financially constrained in its domestic policy b...

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Remember Labour's stunning defeat in the 2019 UK general election? When, under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, they won the lowest number of seats since 1935?   

Steve’s guest, Chris Williamson, brings an insider’s view to the story. Chris is a former MP and shadow minister for UK’s Labour Party. He’s currently deputy leader of the Workers Party of Britain, and hosts a show, Palestine Declassified, that has the notable honor o...

Our friend, physicist and economist Erald Kolasi, stops by the Macro N Cheese clubhouse to talk with Steve about the profound effects of AI on the energy grid, water resources, and societal infrastructure. The discussion focuses primarily on large-scale corporate AI, such as generative AI.

Erald’s work bridges physics, economics, and ecology, revealing how AI’s rapid expansion is not just a technological phenomenon but a biophysical crisis – one that’s easy to overlook. Cloud is such a gentle word. Diaphanous. It sounds harmless. Lovely, even.

**Our weekly online gathering, Macro ‘n Chill is the perfect place to discuss this week’s episode, especially since it includes terminology you might not be familiar with. Or there may be someone who needs your help understanding it. Community-buidling on Tuesday, August 12 at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register 

What do you know about blockchain?  Surely you’ve heard our episodes with Brett Scott or the Blockchain Socialist or Rohan Grey. Now we have another one. Steve’s guest is Victor Vernissage, co-founder of the project Humanode, which aims to use blockchain to create a b...

Charles Derber, a sociology professor at Boston College, talks with Steve about his book, 'Bonfire: American Sociocide, Broken Relations and the Quest for Democracy.' Steve suggests the book aligns with his own assessment that US sociocide (social disintegration) demands revolutionary change. Electoral politics are a distraction and a dead end.

The conversation covers the need for a deeper understanding of a system that manufactures and perpetuates inequality. They discuss the historical continuity of fascism as the logical endpoint of capitalism. Indeed, Trump’s presidency has exposed the latent fascist character of the US state, stripping away li...

If we had the power to design our own political system, what would it look like? 

Stanford Professor James Fishkin talks with Steve about deliberative democracy, a method that brings together diverse, representative groups to weigh policy trade-offs in a fact-based, civil environment. He maintains that when people get the chance to discuss issues in depth, they often move away from extremes, suggesting that polarization isn’t as unbreakable as pundits claim. James presents some examples, like how deliberative polling in Texas led to a massive shift toward wind energy. 

Steve acknowledges his skepticism and asks w...

Dr. Charles LeBaron is a retired CDC scientist and the author of Greed to Do Good: The Untold Story of CDC's Disastrous War on Opioids. He talks with Steve about the ill-considered response to the opioid crisis and the tragic and preventable consequences of the CDC’s 2016 guidelines. Restricting prescriptions without providing treatment (whether for pain relief or addiction) drove users to illicit opioids like fentanyl and a surge in overdose deaths.

The conversation expands to systemic issues, including the corporate greed of Big Pharma, political exploitation of the crisis, and the punitive rather than rehabilitative approach to...

**You’re invited to join us Tuesday evening for Macro ‘n Chill, an online gathering where we can listen to and talk about this episode. Tuesday July 15, 8pm ET/5 pm PT   

Click here to register

This week we're releasing an interview Steve did as a guest of Jim Byrne, host of MMT101 podcast.  

Steve and Jim have much in common, so it’s interesting to hear how their approaches differ. In part, this is related to the conditions of their nationalities. Jim, in Scotland, isn’t faced with the myth of political democracy. They have a...

**Tuesday evenings, we host an online listening party, Macro ‘n Chill, to discuss the current episode. It’s a great way to get to know other members of the community and talk about the ideas expressed in the podcast. Join us this Tuesday, July 8th, at 8 pm ET/5 pm PT Click HERE to register 

Scott Ferguson and Ben Wilson of the Money on the Left collective discuss their ‘Blue Bonds’ proposal with Steve. They explain how states can issue bonds to mitigate the federal austerity measures being enacted under the Trump administration. The conversation explores how this approach c...

Part of our mission is to introduce MMTers to socialism and socialists to MMT. We’ve had a few metaphorical doors slammed in our faces along the way. Former friends from the MMT community now delight in slinging accusations worthy of a HUAC hearing, while some socialists suspect modern monetary theory is just a sideshow of bourgeois economics. So, we didn’t know what to expect when we reached out to Justin and Jeremy, co-hosts of a podcast we’ve long admired. Compared to the vicious rejection we sometimes encounter, their good faith skepticism felt like a warm embrace. They invite...

If civilizations are judged by how they care for their elderly, our report card is already written. Should there be anyone left to judge us – should humanity exist long enough to judge us – we’ve flunked.

Steve’s guest is Judy Karofsky, author of 'DisElderly Conduct: The Flawed Business of Assisted Living and Hospice,' who provides a critical examination of the elder care industry. Judy discusses her own struggles with assisted living facilities and hospice care, highlighting the systemic issues driven by the profit motive and lack of federal oversight. 

Assisted living is meant to be for...

**On Tuesday evening, C. Derick Varn will join us AGAIN for Macro ‘n Chill, our weekly community gathering. While listening to this episode, we will have the opportunity to ask questions and engage in discussion about Part Two. June 17th, 8 pm ET/5 pm PT Click HERE to register 

The second half of Steve’s conversation with Derick Varn goes into the history of the socialist movement from the 1960s to the present.  

Derick traces some of the current factionalism back to the ideological battles between Trotsky and Stalin covered in Part One of this series. This in...

**This Tuesday evening, C. Derick Varn will join us for Macro ‘n Chill, our weekly community gathering. While listening to this episode, folks will have the opportunity to ask questions and engage in discussion. June 10th, 8 pm ET/5 pm PT Click HERE to register 

This episode is the first of a two-part discussion delving into historical splits within socialism. C. Derick Varn, the host of Varn Vlog, has an extensive background in philosophy, anthropology, and history. He takes us from the First and Second Internationals to the ideological divergences of Trotskyism and Stalinism. He also discusses the factions...

There's an oft-repeated Chris Hedges quote that goes: “I do not fight fascists because I will win. I fight fascists because they are fascists.” Well, that’s how we feel about the banks. Revolutionary change is only possible when people understand the institutions of power. The banking system plays a huge role in perpetuating class division and disciplining labor. 

Christopher Shaw is the author of Money, Power, and the People. He talks to Steve about America’s long struggle to democratize banking, drawing connections between past and present economic conditions and inequalities. The discussion spans the creation of the Fed...

The podcast focuses on the critical need to address the root causes of health and environmental crises, emphasizing that many diseases, including cancer, are largely influenced by environmental factors and capitalism's exploitative nature. Hamza Hamouchene talks about his reasons for leaving a career in cancer research, highlighting the disillusionment he faced when he realized that the focus was on profit rather than genuine health solutions.

Hamza and Steve make a case against a capitalist system that not only externalizes costs related to health and the environment but also perpetuates inequities, particularly affecting marginalized communities. They delve into...

This episode features sharp commentary on the current geopolitical landscape, exploring why China continues to thrive despite the chaotic shifting of US policies. 

Our friend Carl Zha brings his vast knowledge of China and delves into the shifting global dynamics with the US. He and Steve examine the absurdity of the US government's approach to trade, particularly the impact of tariffs and sanctions on its own economy, while China strategically positions itself as a rising power.  

Steve likens the US to a schoolyard bully caught off-guard, while Carl offers insights into China's long-term planning and ada...

As difficult as it is to get a handle on the chaos and confusion of Trump’s shifting policies, we continue to ask wise friends for their perspective. This week Steve is speaking with Australian economist Bill Mitchell, a founder of MMT and a regular guest of this podcast. Bill helps us unpack the capitalist contradictions driving global instability.

Steve asks if we should be looking at Trump’s actions as a continuation of the neoliberal trajectory as described in Bill’s book, Reclaiming the State. Bill replies that he doesn't even see it as a natural extens...

The past year has seen lots of discussion of the ‘human’ nature of AI. Programs like ChatGPT were writing poetry, engaging in debates, and roasting users with witty retorts. Educators have been facing more serious concerns as they navigate a world in which students no longer need to learn to do their own research, writing, or thinking. But the militarization of AI makes these other activities seem like Donkey Kong. 

Investigative journalist Peter Byrne joins Steve to talk about the treacherous relationship between technology, capitalism, and militarization. They discuss how companies like Palantir, funded by figures such as Pe...

“When you are a dominant empire like the US, economically, militarily, geopolitically, and you make bets that are exclusively based on power rather than technology, innovation, research and development, education, a growing prosperous middle class, history tells us that you will eventually fail. And that's the ugly reality.” 

Like most media nowadays, we seek to make sense of the confusing, contradictory, and often absurd Trump policies. So of course we turn to our best friend and most frequent guest, economist Fadhel Kaboub.

Fadhel suggests that Trump has two missions: reinforcing the US imperialist-dominant position that...

This week’s episode comes from Steve’s recent appearance on The Tracy Show, where he was invited to talk about MMT with host Tracy Carson, who had some questions.

“Humanity... is at a critical moment in history where the decisions that we make could have massive, massive implications, for our future trajectory, for the future trajectory of human civilization over the next two centuries. Those decisions can either ensure that we have a prosperous millennium or that we have a disastrous one.”

Erald Kolasi joins Steve to talk about his book, The Physics of Capitalism. Erald’s interdisciplinary approach merges economics, technology, energy, and ecological dynamics. He explains that science can provide facts and data about the world, but to address the challenges we need to go beyond physic...

Crazy things have been going on with the price of eggs, especially in the US. If you think this is happening because of the avian flu, you’ve been hoodwinked. Again. 

Basel Musharbash, an antitrust and trade regulation attorney, joins Steve to pull back the curtain on the monopoly forces within the egg supply chain. The discussion reveals crucial and surprising information about this, um, bread and butter issue.  

The episode explores the role of avian flu and how it has been weaponized by a few corporations to tighten their stranglehold on the market. With just...

Steve’s guest is noted economist L. Randall Wray, one of the early developers of modern money theory. As many times as this podcast has talked about MMT, it’s always topical. In fact, just last week, Elon Musk discovered 14 magic money computers in government agencies! 

So, Trump had to hire the richest man in the world who hired who knows how many hundreds of young tech kids to discover what we've been saying for 30 years, which is that Congress appropriates money, and then the computers keystroke it into people's accounts. 

There's no mystery about this a...

**Every Tuesday night, we gather online to listen to the episode and discuss it among friends. Everyone is invited to this community building event. Bring your insights and questions. REGISTER HERE for Tuesday, March 25th, 8 pm ET/5 pm PT



Steve’s guest is Michael McCarthy, author of 'The Master's Tools: How Finance Wrecked Democracy and a Radical Plan to Rebuild It.' They explore McCarthy's analysis of financialization as a deliberate class project to dismantle working-class power and exacerbate inequality.

They look at the historical shift from a robust Social Security system to a pr...

Near the start of this episode, Yeva Nersisyan talks with Steve about leftist economists who are still wedded to the belief that government spending relies on taxpayer money. She says if an academic on the left uses the ‘taxpayer dollar’ framing, then you cannot be surprised when the right uses it too – to say they’re saving taxpayer money, cutting wastefulness, cutting inefficiency. It’s why being consistent is so important. If one side can use it, the other side can too.

“It leads to the Elon Musks of the world using this taxpayer money trope to basically ta...

If you ever find yourself asking “What’s left?” you’re in good company. Today’s left is often indistinguishable from neoliberal centrism. 

Steve’s guests are Simon Winlow and Steve Hall, authors of the book, The Death of the Left: Why We Must Begin from the Beginning Again. They talk about the historical shifts that have led to ideological collapse, disconnection from the working class and the embrace of individualism over collective action.

The conversation emphasizes the urgent need for a revival of working-class politics that transcend identity divisions and focus on collective struggles against economic ne...

Control of information is a vital weapon of the ruling class in its war on the people. Critical media literacy is more important now than it has ever been. For the past year we’ve been drowning in imbalanced coverage of the war on Gaza. (How many times did mainstream news outlets use the word ‘genocide’?) It’s just one example – and it’s an outrage.   

Steve’s guest is Shealeigh Voitl, Project Censored’s digital and print editor. They discuss the media’s role in shaping public perception and delve into the systemic disinformation propagated by corporate and academi...

Thomas Fazi joins Steve once again, this time to explore the current geopolitical landscape under Trump 2.0 and the absurdity of an American empire that creates enemies out of thin air to justify its ongoing military and economic interventions.

The conversation touches on the implications of austerity measures on the working class and the irony of billionaires like Elon Musk advocating for cuts to government spending while enjoying the benefits of public funding via massive subsidies.

With a touch of sarcasm, Thomas & Steve critique how the political elite manipulate narratives to maintain control and distract from...

John Perkins is a storyteller. His stories tell of his work as an economic hit man, creator of a death economy that is polluting and consuming itself into extinction. He has served as advisor to the World Bank, UN, IMF, Fortune 500 corporations, and government and business leaders across the globe. 

“You know, my job was pretty easy, generally speaking, because I was offering the president of a country or his finance minister, whoever, a big loan. And the fact that this loan would help him and his family, his friends – they owned the businesses in most cases – they were...

Depressed about the state of the world? Meet podcast hosts, Dai Poole and David Kugler, who are able to talk about the depressing stuff, yet manage to have a little fun along the way. In November, they brought Steve onto Call Me Limbo because they’re interested in Modern Monetary Theory (smart guys). A few months have passed since then, and things have changed in the US.   

The episode dives right into the thorny questions of divisiveness and weaponized identity politics. Anything that further divides us is dangerous, but anti-wokeness threatens the very people who are most vulnera...

“We need to understand the limits of capitalism. Capitalism has serious limits in the sense that it puts exchange value over use value. And this is by definition irrational according to logic of need, but very rational according to logic of profit...  

But we also need to understand that we are the ones who have produced the system. That's where the empowering voice comes out, because it says, okay, if we have created it, we can also change it.  

And guess what? The system is really fragile. That's why we need austerity constantly to protect it.”...

“It's a wound. Palestine is a wound that doesn't go away because it's ignored.” 

Where there is oppression, there is resistance. Even when it seems invisible to outsiders, it can always be found in the art and culture of the oppressed. 

Malu Halasa and Jordan Elgrably, of the Markaz Review, talk to Steve about Sumud: A New Palestinian Reader, an anthology of essays, poetry, fiction, memoirs, and art. 

Sumud is translated to mean ‘steadfastness’ or ‘standing fast.’ Recounting the work of author and human rights lawyer Raja Sheheda, Malu adds: 

“Sumud is practiced by every...

Running for office is a fool’s errand if you think you can win and radically change the system from within. But an election campaign can serve other purposes for political organizers. A campaign provides a platform, a megaphone... media attention. The process of campaigning puts you in touch with people in the community. As Steve puts it, an election allows you to “build coalitions and radicalize people.”  

Jen Perelman’s need to run against Debbie Wasserman Schultz was clear:  

When there’s an attack on a high profile (read: white) target in the US, media attention is aimed at the perpetrators. If the act was politically motivated, that fact is either used to explain their psychopathy or dismissed altogether. The December shooting death of a UnitedHealthcare CEO has had a different reaction. As soon as the news broke, public sympathy was drawn to the shooter. The American people have too many horror stories about being denied medical coverage. 

Jordan Chariton, of Status Coup News, joins Steve to look at the significance of this story as representation of p...

History doesn’t stand still, and every time we talk about BRICS on this podcast, there’s more to unpack. To understand the significance of BRICS, we must begin with (wait for it) monetary sovereignty.   

Economist Yan Liang is an expert on China’s economy and MMT. She joins Steve to discuss the evolving role of the BRICS nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) and the increasing number of countries becoming involved in challenging US dollar hegemony and the current global financial system. 

Weaponizing of the US dollar has reached an all-time high. Yan explains the...

What’s the point of understanding money if we don’t look at the power relations controlling its distribution? 

Bill Mitchell, a key figure in the development of modern monetary theory, is back for his twelfth appearance on the podcast, beginning with Episode One, Putting the T in MMT.  

As a key figure in the development of MMT, Bill articulates how this theory fundamentally challenges conventional economic wisdom by asserting that governments, as currency issuers, are not financially constrained in the same manner as households or businesses.  

This critical insight dispels the prevailing narrative...

Can you imagine granting personhood to AI entities? Well, some of us couldn’t imagine granting personhood to corporations. And yet... look how that panned out.

In this episode, Steve talks with Duke law professor James Boyle about his new book, The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood. 

James explains the development of his interest in the topic; it began with the idea of empathy. 

Paul Gambles is back to help us unpack China's recent issuance of US dollar-denominated sovereign bonds in Saudi Arabia. 

Paul begins by setting up the historical context. He takes us back to the end of the second World War and the Bretton Woods agreement, designed to bring a new world order, putting the US dollar as the global funding currency. China’s move signals a challenge to the petrodollar system – providing nations with new avenues for financing as an alternative to dollar dependency. 

Paul looks at the Global South in light of China’s behavior, including t...