The Fourth Curtain
A GUIDED TOUR OF VIDEOGAME MAKERY! Hosts Alex Seropian (founder Bungie, Wideload, Industrial Toys) and Aaron Marroquin (Art Director, Game Designer, part time magician) take you on a tour of the minds that create our favorite video games. We may also wander around in our own heads too. We aim to inspire, educate and entertain you about the games you love, the people that make them and hey, if you're not a gamer we know you know one. This will help you connect with them too.
World of Warcraft's Seth Sivak Tips the Dealer
Our guest this week is Seth Sivak, VP Development for World of Warcraft at Blizzard. From early years at Zynga he became Founder and CEO of Proletariat, shipping big games like Spellbreak. We discuss being an Imagineer, the three components of creative decisions and "always be pitching" - this week!Â
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] Why Games Fail: No Audience, No Hype
Seth explains how several recent games failed not from poor quality, but because they launched without building an audience—resulting in commercial flops despite decent reviews.
[00:07:00] Raising $20M for...
Night Street's Mac Reynolds Captures the Last Flag
Our guest this week is Mac Reynolds, CEO and co-founder of Night Street Games, making the PvP shooter Last Flag. As manager of the band, Imagine Dragons, he learned how to find magic from the grind and now applies that to a videogame. We discuss Eagle Scouts, learning to advocate and CTF - this week!Â
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] Realizing How Hard It Is to Make a Game
Mac shares how his early assumptions about game development were quickly shattered after launching Night Street Games.
[00:08:00] From Managing Imagine Dragons t...
Oregon Trail's Phillip Bouchard Blazes Deadly Paths
Our guest this week is the poster boy for educational software going massively mainstream, Phillip Bouchard. Starting in the world of mainframes he created a worldwide hit on Apple II and beyond. We talk Apple getting kickstarted and science for fun and profit this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] The Legacy of The Oregon Trail: Still Remembered 40 Years Later
Philip reflects on the surprising longevity of The Oregon Trail, a game still remembered decades after its release and played by new generations.
[00:08:00] Dysentery and Game Design: Origins of a...
Killer Instinct's Adam Boyes Tears Down the Walls
Our guest this week is Adam Boyes, longtime co-CEO of Iron Galaxy and now founder of Vivrato. From Killer Instinct to The Last of Us Part I, he’s helped bring major games to life and now supports devs launching their own. We discuss putting in raunchy stuff, nemawashi and his magic deck of challenges - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] "Shipping Will Burn You": Why Making Games Is the Best Teacher
Adam kicks off with advice for aspiring devs: build, release, and learn from failure—because real growth comes from ship...
Dead by Daylight’s Rémi Racine Bets on Himself
Our guest RĂ©mi Racine is the founder & CEO of Behaviour Interactive—the studio behind Dead by Daylight and dozens of other titles. A veteran of the games industry for over 25 years, RĂ©mi has helped shape not just iconic games but also the entire Canadian game development landscape - this week!Â
00:02:10 — From Montreal to Mainstream: Remi’s first game at age 24
Discover how Remi’s early passion project turned into a pioneering move in Canadian game development.
00:08:45 — The Birth of Behaviour Interactive
Learn how Remi spun off from Mult...
Uncharted's Nolan North's Weird Ability to Yell
Our guest Nolan North has brought to life your favorite videogame characters with his voice! From Uncharted's Nathan Drake and Assassin's Creed's Desmond Miles, to scores of others, he is a top talent in the industry. We discuss the freedom of preparation and being broke but happy - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] From Soap Operas to Sound Booths: Nolan North’s Unexpected VO Journey
Nolan shares how a friend encouraged him to pivot from acting on Port Charles to voice acting—kicking off a prolific video game career.
[0...
Hogwarts Legacy's John Blackburn is Cool in the Arcade
Our guest John Blackburn is a founder and CEO of Avalanche Software, makers of hundreds of games for dozens of platforms, such as Hogwarts Legacy and Disney Infinity. He has tales of when games paid royalties and having to take a chance. We discuss how to talk to execs and being true but not canon - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] Mortal Kombat Funded Avalanche’s Origins
John Blackburn reveals how Avalanche Studios was launched thanks to Mortal Kombat Trilogy royalties—literally bankrolling the studio's earliest days.
[00:13:00] Salt Lake...
What Have You Got to Lose with Blizzard's Michael Morhaime
Our guest Michael Morhaime was President and CEO of Blizzard during its glory years, shipping Warcraft, Starcraft, World of Warcraft, Diablo and more! Now Founder and CEO Dreamhaven he's won an Emmy and is in the AIAS Hall of Fame. We discuss red tape, how many billion dollar franchises you need on your resume and more - this week!
[00:01:00] Blizzard’s High Standards: Canceling Half Their Games
Mike reveals that Blizzard canceled nearly half of its projects to maintain quality, highlighting their ruthless pursuit of excellence—a strategy echoed by studios like Supercell.
The Sims' Bing Gordon is Specifically Right
Our guest Bing Gordon has had a long successful run in videogames and tech. From marketing lead to Chief Creative Officer at EA, he helped shaped NASCAR, The Sims and other huge titles. We discuss pitching, two beer strategies and Speilberg's smoke test - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:04:00] How Bing Gordon Helped Launch Electronic Arts
Bing shares the story of co-founding EA when it was a scrappy startup in 1983, including raising $2 million in funding and being the company’s one-person marketing department.
 [00:07:00] Reading the Room: How Bin...
Portal's Kim Swift's Cake is Not a Lie
Our guest Kim Swift turned a student demo into the mega-hit Portal. Previously the Head of Creative for Xbox Games Publishing, she also did level design on Left 4 Dead and was Design Director for Star Wars: Battlefront II. We discuss how to pitch, owning IP on Mars and whether or not the cake is a lie - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:21] Kim Swift’s Game Design Origin Story
Kim talks about how she got into game development by modding games like Doom and Quake, which eventually led to her jo...
The Blinding Flame of Red Dead's Christian Cantamessa
Our guest Christian Cantamessa began in point and click adventures before becoming lead designer and writer for Red Dead Redemption. Now CEO of Day 4 Night Studios Inc., he is also the writer and director of the film, Air. We discuss concern about GTA III, embracing the game and telling stories in games - this week!
[00:00:00] – From Donald Duck to GTA III: Career Whiplash
Christian recalls the surreal leap from working on a Donald Duck GBA game to contributing to Grand Theft Auto III at Rockstar Games.
[00:07:00] – Founding Day for Nigh...
Command and Conquer's Louis Castle's Triple Threat
Our guest Louis Castle helped invent real-time strategy games with Command and Conquer and has a BAFTA for Boom Blox. Now leading Childlike Wonder Games, we discuss casino ethics, switching to real-time and building toys - this week!
Top 8 Highlights
[00:00:00] – Lifelong Learning: The Key to Game Design Success
Louis Castle opens the episode by emphasizing the importance of constant learning as a game designer, citing curiosity and adaptability as essential traits.
[00:06:00] – Founding Westwood Studios & Creating the RTS Genre
Louis reflects on co-founding West...
Tencent's Amir Satvat Flexes the Data Muscle for Good
Our guest Amir Satvat wants to get you a job in games. A business development executive at Tencent, he won the Game Changer award for the incredible community he built which has helped over 3k gamedevs find their next role with mentorship, mock interviews and more. We discuss "the troubles" and hopes for the future - this week!
You can find Amir's website and community here:Â https://amirsatvat.com/
[00:00:00] The 17-Year Grind: Amir shares how it took nearly two decades—and hundreds of rejections—before landing his first job in games at age 38.[00:14:00] The J...Outer Wilds' Alex Beachum's Cool Weird Emotional Prototypes
Our guest Alex Beachum turned his thesis project into the mind-bending smash Outer Wilds. Inspired by greats such as Zelda and Antichamber, it blazed new ground by having a nonviolent (though definitely mortal) player. We discuss emotional prototypes, four distinct mysteries and the IGF - this week!
Highlights
[00:00:30] Emotional Prototyping: Designing with Feeling Alex Beachum discusses the idea of building an emotional prototype for a game, capturing the vibe before mechanics—like roasting marshmallows as the sun explodes. This became the emotional core of Outer Wilds.Â
[00:17:30] The Origin of the Supernova Mec...
The Maestro of Modding Sandi Montaño
In this inspiring episode of The Fourth Curtain, we sit down with Sandi Montaño, a self-taught modding phenom who went from stay-at-home dad to one of the most downloaded indie creators in the gaming world. With over 31 million downloads of his content for games like ARK: Survival Ascended and Hogwarts Legacy, Sandi proves you don’t need a degree—or even a formal background in game development—to make a major impact.
If you’re a game developer, modder, or creative looking to break into the industry—this is a must-listen.
What star...
Exploding Kittens' Elan Lee Stacks the Deck
Our guest is Exploding Kitten's Elan Lee. Starting with animating breath for the film Titanic, he went on to create the world's first alternate reality game, The Beast, at Microsoft. Later he gamified Nine Inch Nails and voter registration and went on to launch the most successful Kickstarter ever for Exploding Kittens, redefining family game night. This episode features great stories and a world exclusive product announcement - this week!Â
[00:06:30] From ILM to Xbox
Elan shares his early work on Titanic and Star Wars, including hand-animating breath and neck seams for Jar Jar Binks—yes...
Journey's Jenova Chen and the Art of the Positive Game
This week's guest is Jenova Chen, creator of Journey, Sky: Children of the Light and other games. A BAFTA winner, he has strong opinions about morality in games and the value of positivity. We discuss the unique way he starts games, GDC's value and being the opposite of GTA - this week!
[00:00:00] Music as the Highest Resolution Emotional MediumJenova Chen explains why he believes music is the most powerful emotional communication tool, comparing it to pixel art and poetry.[00:08:00] The Journey of thatgamecompany & Raising $160M
Jenova shares how Thatgamecompany evolved from...
Alex Irvine's Storytelling Secrets from Marvel Rivals and Beyond!
Dive into the compelling world of storytelling with acclaimed author Alex Irvine, known for his immersive contributions to Marvel games, graphic novels, and groundbreaking Alternate Reality Games (ARGs) like I Love Bees. In this episode, Alex shares his insights on creativity, the delicate balance between talent, persistence, and luck, and the intricate art of narrative design across various media formats. From discussing the unique challenges of writing for expansive universes like Marvel's multiverse to recalling his first forays into writing, Alex reveals the true secret ingredient to success. Packed with engaging anecdotes and wisdom, this conversation will captivate aspiring...
Hope for the Future with Halo's Joe Staten
This week's guest is Halo and Destiny's Joe Staten. Beginning as a farmhand, he went on to lead teams in the Halo franchise, be on the core team for Destiny, write a NYT bestselling novel and work with the great Peter Jackson. Now looking for his next role, we discuss how Bungie was like a family business, the most important mysteries and creativity and risk - this week!
Episode Highlights – Joseph Staten on The Fourth Curtain Podcast
🎙️ Guest: Joseph Staten – Writer, Cinematics Director, Creative Director, NYT Bestselling Author, Voice Actor, and former Ha...
Games Workshop's Ian Livingstone, Fantasy Knight in Real Life
This week's guest is a founder of Games Workshop, publisher of White Dwarf magazine, creator of the Fighting Fantasy Books and Executive Chair of Eidos Interactive Sir Ian Livingstone. This Knight of the British Empire started a business while living in a van, prevailed through a Satanic panic about his Fighting books, saw the promise of a certain Tomb Raider and birthed a mass media entertainment phenomenon. Now using games for education, we talk getting bonkers exclusives, the 3 G's of gamedev and more - this week!
🎙️ The Fourth Curtain – S3 Ep01: Sir Ian Livingstone 🎲
[00:0...
Best of 2024
In this week's episode we recap some of the best moments from Season 2, with John Romero on hits and misses, how Peter Molyneux makes a game, Ed Fries on Xbox's Valentines Day massacre, Warren Spector on how playstyle is everything and much more!Â
🎮 The Fourth Curtain – S2 Best Of Highlights
[00:00:00] – Season 2 Recap & Patreon Launch 🎉
Alex and Aaron reflect on Season 2, announce the new Patreon, and tease upcoming guests.[00:08:00] – John Romero’s First Game 👾
John shares how he programmed his first game on a mainframe in 1979 and discovered Colossa...Ed Boon Gets into the Nitty-Gritty Metal
Welcome to the Season Two finale episode! And it's a Monster!!!! (Never fear, we will be back in a couple of weeks with some special episodes to bridge the gap to Season Three!)
This week's guest is Ed Boon, co-creator of Mortal Kombat and Injustice and Chief Creative Officer of Mortal Kombat and NetherRealm Studios! Starting in the world of pinball, he moved onto arcade games at the legendary Midway Games and is still making blockbusters. We discuss his World Record entry in the book of Guinness, the cultural impact of MK and the key question he...
From Pong to Deconstructor: Mishka Katkoff’s Global Gaming Journey
Ok, we know this episode should be called Something Fun on the Toilet with MK, but we're chose to keep it classy. Our guest this week is Michail Katkoff, a veteran of Zynga, Supercell, and Rovio, partner in Play Ventures, and founder of Deconstructor of Fun. In all of these different roles he's developed a unique understanding of our industry from different perspectives. We discuss product management, insane mobile profits and the ecosystem necessary to support game studios.
00:00 – Introduction: Alex and Aaron introduce Mishka, highlighting his diverse roles in the gaming industry.
02:00 – First Steps...
Things Blow Up with Mike Pondsmith
In this episode of The Fourth Curtain, legendary game designer Mike Pondsmith joins hosts Alex and Aaron for an in-depth conversation about his expansive career, from creating the tabletop RPG Cyberpunk to collaborating with CD Projekt Red on Cyberpunk 2077. Mike discusses his early days in game development, the creation of Night City, and the challenges of translating tabletop concepts into video games. The episode is full of humor, industry insights, and engaging anecdotes, offering listeners a rare look into the mind of a creator who has shaped both pen-and-paper and digital gaming worlds.
Time-Stamped Highlights
[05:00:23]<...The Business Romance of Mihai Pohontu
This week on The Fourth Curtain, we’re joined by Mihai Pohontu, CEO and Chairman of Amber Studio, a distinguished figure in the gaming industry. Mihai, who was recently named Romanian Entrepreneur of the Year, shares his fascinating journey from the upheaval of post-revolution Romania to becoming a leader in global game development. A self-described business romantic, Mihai offers insightful perspectives on the role of capitalism and entrepreneurship in shaping a better society.
Amber Studio, a valued partner to this podcast, has provided critical development services across the industry, including work on popular titles like Stumble Guys. In...
Warren Spector Gets the Keys to the Kingdom
Our guest Warren Spector is the creative producer behind vastly influential games like Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Deus Ex and many others. Now working on (working title) Argos, he joins us to talk about the birth of the immersive sim, having amazing mentors and ways to start a game, this week!
The conversation dives deep into Warren's career, discussing his design philosophy around player agency and choice, the history behind some of the most influential immersive sim games, and his experiences working at companies like Origin Systems, Ion Storm, and Disney. Warren shares behind-the-scenes stories about the...
Ed Fries Races The Beam
In this episode of The Fourth Curtain, Alex and Aaron sit down with Ed Fries, a pivotal figure in the gaming industry and former VP at Microsoft, where he helped launch the Xbox. Ed shares stories from his early days at Microsoft, including how he made the leap from working on Office products to heading up the game division. He dives into the creation of the original Xbox, the challenges the team faced, and the infamous "Valentine’s Day Massacre" meeting where Xbox's future hung in the balance.
Ed also talks about his passion for game development, st...
Frank Gibeau's Silver Bullets for Game Development
Join Alex Seropian (founder of Bungie) and Aaron Marroquin as they dive into the incredible minds behind the video game industry in The Fourth Curtain. In this episode, they chat with Frank Gibeau, the CEO of Zynga, who takes listeners on a journey through one of the most legendary corporate turnarounds in gaming history. From his early days at EA to leading Zynga through a $12.7 billion acquisition by Take-Two, Frank shares valuable insights into leadership, strategy, and the ever-evolving world of mobile gaming.
Episode Highlights:
[00:00:00] Frank humorously reflects on Zynga’s rough ea...Jordan Weisman Makes Stuff Up
Our guest this week is the legend Jordan Weisman. Creator of BattleTech, Crimson Skies and the world's first alternate reality game, he's now working on Adventure Forge, a platform to help non-engineers make videogames. We talk buying D&D from Gary Gygax, at Gary's house!, the secret to entrepreneurship and creating the "Bungie bubble" this week!
[00:07:00] Interview Introduction: Jordan Weisman’s Career Highlights
Alex introduces Jordan Weisman’s career and his influential work in gaming and alternate reality games (ARGs).
[00:10:00] The Origins of WizKids and Collectible Miniatures
Jordan talks about founding WizKids and the...
Harvey Smith Knows the Secret to Magical Games
Our guest this week is the co-creative director of Arkane Studios, Harvey Smith. Starting out in QA for System Shock and other games, he went on to be lead designer for Deus Ex and ultimately made Dishonored at Arkane. We talk meeting your heroes, recombining systems and the secret to making a magical game this week!Â
[00:00:00] - Harvey Smith discusses his first encounter with a game that sparked his passion, System Shock, comparing it to seeing one's first love in a movie.
[00:45:00] - Harvey recounts his experience with Ultima 8, explaining how he created a list o...
Behind the Headlines: Dean Takahashi’s Journey Through Gaming’s Biggest Stories
In this exciting episode of The Fourth Curtain, hosts Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin dive deep into the world of gaming journalism with none other than Dean Takahashi, the lead writer of GamesBeat at VentureBeat. With over three decades of experience covering tech and gaming, Dean shares his unique insights on the evolving landscape of the gaming industry, the challenges of maintaining journalistic integrity in the age of AI, and the stories that have shaped his career.
Timestamped Highlights:
[00:00:00] - Introduction and Dean’s Perspective on AI in JournalismDe...
Rod Fergusson Shakes The Jello
This week's guest is a well-known "closer" who has steered the ship for some of the biggest games ever. Beginning with Train Simulator, he went on to serve as Producer for Counter-Strike Xbox, Gears of War, Infinity Blade, BioShock Infinite. Now helming Diablo at Blizzard, he talks triage, teamwork and not shaking the jello - this week!
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Inside CD Projekt RED: Michal Nowakowski on The Witcher, Cyberpunk, and Gaming's Future
Our guest this week is Michal Nowakowski the co-CEO of CD Projekt Red, the renowned studio behind iconic games like The Witcher and Cyberpunk 2077.
With nearly two decades at CD Projekt, Michal shares his journey from the early days of video game distribution in Poland to leading one of the world's most celebrated game development companies.
Beginning as a game distributor, CD Projekt went on to develop The Witcher, which sold a whopping 75 million units! Michal discusses the company's strategic decisions, such as developing the next Cyberpunk game in the US to capture an authentic...
Brian Reynolds Surrounds the Fun Part 2
Our conversation with the gamedev legend Brian Reynolds continues as we dive into the true meaning of 4X, the Train Reynolds business model, NPC insults and the research secrets of this podcast - this week!
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation...
Brian Reynolds Surrounds the Fun Part 1
Our guest Brian Reynolds has a story so nice we had to hear it twice! In Part 1 we hear about coding at Radioshack, mentorship with Sid Meier and making Civilization 2 basically by himself. A great conversation with a legend to resume Season 2 of The Fourth Curtain!
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content...
From Gamer to Creator with Uri Marchand
Co-founder and CEO of Overwolf, Uri Marchand has been building _THE_ UGC platform for over fourteen years and Overwolf has paid more than $200 million to mod-makers going deep on games from Minecraft to Stardew Valley! A hardcore Real Time Strategy player, Uri's company now supports all types of games including Ark and The Sims. We talk the funnel from gamer to creator, the best books on business, and surviving and thriving over the long haul.
Some of the books on Uri's Reading list:
Nonviolent Communication. By Marshall Rosenberg
Good To Great, Built To Last, Great...
Mark DeLoura Leverages Games for More
Our guest Mark DeLoura has had a stunningly wide-ranging career: game developer and executive for Nintendo, Sony and THQ, Editor in Chief of Game Developer magazine, Senior Advisor for Digital Media in the White House, author of Programming Gems book series, built hardware and software for NASA and served on the Board at Games for Change. This week he joins us to talk about building entertainment and games as a language to serve a greater good!
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring...
The Action Arcade Strategy of Shannon Loftis
For a second time we are graced with the presence of videogame legend Shannon Loftis! Veteran of running Flight Simulator and Age of Empires at Microsoft, she was instrumental in the acquisition of Rare for Xbox game Studios. Now an advisor to Duke University's videogame program she joins us to talk franchises, Animal Well and the great Profanisaurus!
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com<...
The Definition of Indie with Schmid and Kho
Our guests this week are creators of the visually-striking games Cocoon, Limbo and Inside. Jakob Scmid is co-founder of Geometric Interactive and Erwin Kho is the artist guiding a couple of those projects. We talk about readable environments, demo scenes and more this week!
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https...
The Conference
This past March, 30,000 people went to San Francisco for the annual Game Developers Conference. Going since 1988, GDC, brings together people from all corners of the game development community. The Fourth Curtain followed four different journeys intersecting this conference.
The First Timer: Aaron has never gone to GDC and it terrified him.
The Seasoned Pro: Patrick Curry, game studio founder on how he grew up at the conference and how it changed him.
The Founder: Chris Crawford on why he started the conference and how it ultimately drove him from the industry.
The Indie: Geometric...
