REFS NEED LOVE TOO

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A soldier-turned-official sets a six-year goal to reach the Premier League—and makes it! Then he does an even rarer thing: he stays for over 15 years! We sit down with Scott Ledger, a 500+ appearance Premier League Assistant Referee and FA Cup Final appointee, to unpack the craft behind elite officiating—how preparation, humility, and sharp eyes under pressure create credibility when tens of thousands are judging every move.

Scott takes us inside the modern toolkit: pre-match data packs that map set-piece patterns and passing lanes, film study to anticipate offside traps and scre...

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A soldier-turned-official sets a six-year goal to reach the Premier League—and makes it! Then he does an even rarer thing: he stays for over 15 years! We sit down with Scott Ledger, a 500+ appearance Premier League assistant referee and FA Cup Final appointee, to unpack the craft behind elite officiating—how preparation, humility, and sharp eyes under pressure create credibility when tens of thousands are judging every move.

Scott takes us inside the modern toolkit: pre-match data packs that map set-piece patterns and passing lanes, film study to anticipate offside traps and scre...

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Abusive sidelines don’t fix bad calls—and they’re driving referees out of the game. We sat down with U.S. Soccer’s Vice President of Referees, Kari Seitz, to break down how “Respect the Call” and Policy 531-9 are changing that story with clear standards, real accountability, and education designed for today’s crews.

We start with the foundation: knowing the difference between a raw emotional reaction and dissent. That clarity matters because early, consistent action keeps matches from spiraling. Kari explains the new video series that teaches practical skills most officials...

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Ever wonder what “clear and obvious” actually means when the stakes are high and the clock is running? We bring you a rare, candid look inside MLS video review with Greg Barkey, the head of VAR at PRO. Greg shares how the system was built in the United States—from early scrimmages with eight cameras at a local park to the first monitor review at Red Bull Arena—and why the guiding principle remains simple: to correct clear and obvious errors without re-refereeing the match.

We dig into the humanity officiating: game manageme...

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Ever wonder what a referee actually says to defuse tenssions—or how it feels to make a split-second call with no assistants and 22 players demanding an answer? We sit down with Eric Edge, the former semi-pro goalkeeper behind the viral channel Behind The Whistle, to unpack the real craft of Sunday League officiating: honesty that cools tempers, foul selection that protects the game, and transparency that turns critics into collaborators.

Eric explains why he films every match and posts full breakdowns, not as a highlight reel but as a learning lab. We ex...

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This week, we have a true full-circle moment on the show. After listening to our recent episode with Kevin Klinger on referee mindset, Regional Referee Alex Perez sent in an incredible email about how he immediately applied those lessons during a grueling college showcase weekend. We were so moved by his story—and how he turned a potential on-field disaster into a success—that we immediately invited him on the pod to share his experience firsthand.

Based in West Virginia, Alex is a USSF Regional Referee and National Candidate who officiates in majo...

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Pressure doesn’t just come from the scoreboard—it lives in your head and your chest when the crowd roars and a coach questions your integrity. We sit down with Kevin Klinger, Director of Referee Education and Development at U.S. Officials and founder of Officials Mental Edge, to break down the mental skills that separate solid refs from truly elite officials. Kevin brings a rare dual lens as a longtime pro referee and licensed counselor, translating sports psychology into practical, on‑field tools.

We unpack how a real development ecosystem goes far be...

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A year can include joy and pain without destroying you. In 2025, I said goodbye to my dad—the person I called on every big news story, new tech breakthrough, or small family win—and then rebuilt my life in a way he’d love to hear about. That mix of grief and momentum shaped everything: how I left about work, how I re-built my career, and how I chose where to invest my energy.

The moment the fun drained out of a private equity‑owned, corporate job and the relief that came with cho...

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Ever tried to judge a play from six feet off the ground with bodies flying past and zero replays? That’s where referees live, and it’s nothing like the view from the stands. We sit down with RefReps CEO Kyle Armstrong to explore how first‑person video, multi‑angle breakdowns, and short, high‑impact modules are rebuilding the referee pipeline and reshaping sports culture from the ground up.

Kyle walks us through the origin story, the tech stack, and the classroom model that puts officiating into high schools and colleges. Students rotate bet...

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Big games don’t get easier; you get better at carrying them. Ahead of my first State Cup final, I open up about nerves, preparation, and the quiet work that turns pressure into focus: fitness tuned for late sprints, gear and crew checks that prevent chaos, and a five-minute reset that keeps me in the match instead of in my head. The heart of the story is confidence earned over 1,500 matches and the decision to judge what’s in front of me, not the crowd around me.

Howard Webb’s The Man in the...

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We sat down with Daneen Gonçalves, founder and chief visionary officer of The Referee Advocates, to unpack a simple idea with massive impact: treat referees like an integral and supported part of your club, build clear development pathways and watch the entire matchday experience improve. Danine brings decades as a player, coach, official and leadership professional, and she’s using that experience to help clubs become great places for referees to work and grow.

We dig into the broken parts of the system—referees thrown into games they’re not ready for, cl...

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Tired of holding your flag up for Offside, while the whole sideline screams “REF!”? We go straight at the problem and bring on engineer and referee Sam Rall, the creator of RareBit Offcial buzzer flags. He shows how a simple haptic signal can transform crew communication, reduce chaos, and keep matches flowing. 

David opens with the bigger picture—why innovation in referee education meets resistance from comfortable committees—and then we zoom into the design and decisions that make a better tool: modern Bluetooth 5 for reliable range, firmware that boosts power only when need...

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The whistle isn’t the hard part. It’s the noise around it—sidelines boiling over, subtle bias that undermines authority, and those early games where one bad interaction can end a career before it starts. We sit down with rising official Mia Clark to talk about staying in the game, building real confidence, and why supporting women on the whistle changes everything.

Mia traces her path from a 14-year-old assistant learning the lines in the rain to assignments in the USLW and high school state playoffs. She shares the moments that almost...

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Grief has a way of focusing the lens on what actually matters: how someone lived, how they treated those who couldn't fight back, and what they stood for even when it was unpopular. My dad never reffed, but he taught me everything about making life’s hardest decisions—kindness first, integrity always, and the courage to do the hard right thing when it counts.

We trace a life well lived: European trips, science missions to Alaska and Hawaii, a deep love of national parks, and a New Yorker’s unlikely passion for countr...

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Landing my dream job as Director of Referee Programming and Development at SoCal Soccer League marks the culmination of a four-year journey that began when I started the Refs Need Love Too channel as a joke in 2021. What started as an escape from corporate burnout has transformed into a full-time opportunity to improve referee development across the largest soccer league in America, with over 4,400 teams and 40,000 players.

This career shift represents everything I've been working toward—taking what I've done nights and weekends for years and making it my day job. The po...

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What does it take to officiate at the highest level of world soccer? Matthew Conger, who refereed at both the 2018 and 2022 FIFA World Cups, pulls back the curtain on the journey from grassroots to elite officiating in this fascinating conversation.

Growing up as a goalkeeper in Georgia before eventually representing New Zealand on the international stage, Conger's unique path provides rare insights into what truly separates good referees from great ones. "Positioning and movement is the bedrock of good decision-making," he explains, revealing how sometimes just two or three meters makes the...

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What if the secret to transforming youth soccer wasn't silencing parents, but engaging them properly? In this eye-opening conversation, Skye Eddy, founder of SoccerParenting.com and "The Sideline Project" challenges the conventional wisdom about "crazy soccer parents" and reveals a path forward that benefits everyone in the youth sports ecosystem.

The narrative that parents are the worst part of youth sports has dominated for too long. Skye argues that while the truly problematic parents make up just 4-5% of the population, they've "ruined it for everyone" - driving away referees and coaches...

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What separates great referees from good ones isn't just knowledge of the laws—it's emotional intelligence. This deeply personal episode explores the challenging balance of life as a sports official while introducing a powerful mental framework called the  "Let Them" theory from Mel Robbins."

We begin with an intimate look at the struggle to balance a demanding marketing career, family transitions, and referee responsibilities. As my two oldest children prepare to leave for college just as the new soccer season begins, I'm reminded how referees must constantly juggle competing priorities while still sho...

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Ever wonder why soccer fields seem to ignite emotions like few other places? In this eye-opening conversation, Dr. Ryan Martin – known as the Anger Professor – reveals the perfect psychological storm that makes pitches emotional pressure cookers.

Dr. Martin challenges our fundamental understanding of anger, explaining it's not inherently negative but rather a signal of perceived injustice or goal-blocking. On the soccer field, this manifests when calls feel unfair or when someone believes the referee is preventing them from achieving their objective – winning. What makes sporting events uniquely volatile is the combination of high s...

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Soccer's law book undergoes a mini-revolution with the 2025-2026 Laws of the Game, and referee Leland Grant, National Referee Coach and Umpiro founder, breaks down the four most significant changes poised to transform how matches unfold across all levels of play.

The first major change introduces a powerful new tool for match officials: the captain-only zone. When surrounded by multiple players, referees can now signal for a four-meter exclusion zone where only the designated team captain may approach. This mechanic directly addresses referee harassment, requiring captains to wear proper armbands and take...

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Welcome to the Fresh Patch Podcast where we talk about everything, from dog...

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Ever wonder how to stay passionate while juggling multiple demanding roles? This candid episode dives into the reality of balancing life as a referee, business professional, content creator, and parent during an especially hectic season.

David shares his journey through a particularly intense period—working full-time in sales and marketing for Hip Hues, running Refs Need Love Too, and preparing for his daughter's high school graduation while managing to referee challenging matches. Rather than feeling overwhelmed, he's discovered a powerful mindset shift that transforms exhaustion into fulfillment: consistently asking "Is what I'm do...

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Ever wondered what it takes to officiate at the collegiate level? John Collins, the National Coordinator of Men's and Women's Soccer Officials for the NCAA, pulls back the curtain on a world that represents both challenge and opportunity for advancing referees.

With college soccer now boasting the largest officiating pool in NCAA sports—over 5,380 registered officials—Collins reveals the pathways to breaking into this level. "If you're working at the top youth level and at the amateur level, NCAA soccer is probably a fit for you," he explains, detailing how referees typically move...

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What does it take to excel as a defender when you don't fit the physical prototype? Michael Parkhurst, who captained Atlanta United to their 2018 MLS Cup victory, reveals how his mind became his greatest strength on the soccer pitch.

"My brain was my biggest asset," Parkhurst explains, detailing how he compensated for lacking the traditional center back qualities of height, strength, and aerial prowess. This mental approach not only fueled his remarkable professional career but also inspired his current mission helping young players develop beyond their technical abilities.

After watching...

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Have you ever wondered how the best soccer referees reach the pinnacle of their profession? For national referee Bowen Taylor, the answer lies in stepping out of your comfort zone and traveling to officiate matches across the country.

At just 25 years old, Bowen has already achieved what many referees dream of – earning his national badge and working professional matches in leagues like USL Championship and MLS Next Pro. His secret weapon? Using travel as a catalyst for growth. When you officiate unfamiliar teams on unfamiliar fields with unfamiliar colleagues, you develop adaptability an...

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The soccer referee uniform has become an unexpected battleground where tradition, practicality, and safety collide. Drawing from over 11 years and 1,300 matches of experience, I share my frustration with the often unreasonable uniform standards imposed on grassroots referees that sometimes compromise their health and wellbeing.

Despite US Soccer officially approving hats as part of the referee uniform, many senior officials still pressure referees to forego this essential sun protection. This isn't just about appearance—it's a serious health concern. Many long-time referees have developed skin cancers and eye conditions from prolonged sun exposure. Wh...

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What happens when we normalize abuse toward the most vulnerable members of our sports community? David Gerson, host of Refs Need Love Too, joins attorney Ben Glass on the Renegade Lawyer podcast to tackle one of youth sports' most pervasive problems—referee abuse and its devastating impact on officiating retention.

This raw, revealing conversation explores the alarming statistics: we've lost over 30% of certified soccer referees since 2019, with 80% of new officials quitting within three years primarily due to sideline abuse. David shares powerful personal stories, including the moment his teenage son nearly walked aw...

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What does it really take to officiate at soccer's highest levels while maintaining a corporate career?Pro assistant referee Melissa Gonzalez pulls back the curtain on the demanding reality behind the flags and whistles.

"The perception is this is my full-time job, but it's not," Gonzalez reveals, describing her meticulous scheduling between IT project management responsibilities and professional refereeing commitments. Unlike many officials who map out deliberate career paths, Melissa's journey began simply with curiosity and the need for college spending money. Her progression came through consistently showing up, performing well, and...

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Join us for a captivating conversation with Ismail Elfath, a FIFA International Referee who has officiated matches on the world stage. Throughout the episode, Ismail outlines the critical skills of game management and the significance of body language and authority in establishing respect from players. He shares personal stories and advice that showcase what it means to be not just a referee, but a figure of stability on the pitch.

Listeners will gain insight into the balance required to assert authority while maintaining empathy—essential for successful officiating. Ismail illustrates this through di...

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Kari Seitz, one of the most distinguished figures in soccer officiating, unravels the secrets of her trailblazing career in our latest episode. As the Vice President of Referees for US Soccer and the former FIFA head of refereeing for women, Kari's insights are a treasure trove for anyone passionate about the beautiful game. With her unparalleled experience at four World Cups and three Olympic Games, she has a one-of-kind perspective as she shares her strategies for advancing refereeing in the U.S.

The landscape of refereeing has undergone immense transformation, and Kari...

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Welcome to the Fresh Patch Podcast where we talk about everything, from dog...

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Michael Oliver's controversial red card decision during the Arsenal vs. Wolves match has ignited debates far beyond the pitch, demanding a closer look at the high-stakes world of refereeing. Join us as we unpack the intense scrutiny faced by officials in the English Premier League, emphasizing the importance of empathy and understanding for their challenging roles. We also dive into David Coote's candid revelations about his journey through personal struggles, painting a poignant picture of the human side of refereeing that often goes unseen.

We offer insights and a fresh perspective on...

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What constitutes abuse in the realm of US Soccer? Join us for a deep dive into the pressing issue of referee abuse with Brian Barlow, the force behind the Offside page on Facebook, as we navigate the new policy spearheaded by Kari Seitz, VP of Referees for US Soccer. With a focus on clarifying and categorizing abusive behavior, the policy aims to establish a uniform approach across the nation. As Brian sheds light on emerging respect at national tournaments, we confront the ongoing challenge of underreporting incidents and the persistent issues faced at the...

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Step into the intricate world of sports officiating with seasoned litigation and trial attorney Andres Vidaldez, who brings a dual perspective as both a legal expert and a referee. Discover the unique intersection of law and sports as Andres shares insights into the complex legal landscape referees must navigate. Learn about the critical importance of understanding contracts and legal responsibilities, as well as the passion and dedication required to thrive in refereeing, whether it's a vocation or an avocation.

Explore the potential liabilities referees face on the field, from handling mass confrontations...

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Uncover the inspiring journey of Megan Richardson, a standout referee from Georgia who has shattered barriers and set new standards in the world of female refereeing. Recognized as the Female Youth Referee of the Year multiple times, Megan opens up about the less obvious challenges she overcomes on the pitch, beyond the commonplace chauvinism. From navigating life changes to mentoring the next generation of referees, her story is a testament to resilience and passion in a male-dominated field.

Embark on a journey through the highs and lows of progressing as a soccer...

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What happens when you walk away from a secure corporate job to pursue your passion for running a small business, refereeing and mentorship? Join me, David Gerson, as I recount the exhilarating journey from the office to the field, where the thrill of officiating high-stakes matches like the Georgia State Cup semi-finals and finals became my new reality. Through this transition, I discovered the power of female representation in high-level soccer games and found fulfillment in mentoring young referees, ultimately choosing family and well-being over climbing the corporate ladder.

Explore the critical...

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Ever wondered what it's like to transition from the adrenaline rush of being an elite player to the disciplined world of professional refereeing? Join me as I talk to the trailblazing Amy Barrett - Theron, South Africa's pioneering international rugby referee. Together, we explore her groundbreaking journey as the first South African woman to officiate in esteemed competitions like Super Rugby and the Olympics. Our conversation celebrates the cultural heartbeat of rugby in South Africa, ignited by the iconic 1995 World Cup, and the sport's unique ability to bring together players of all shapes, sizes...

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IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: This podcast is not intended or should be taken as tax advice. Consult with a tax professional to help you with your own specific tax situation. 

Robin Ruegg, a USA Brevet rating gymnastics judge with over 40 years of experience, joins us to unravel the fascinating world of gymnastics officiating. Robin shares her journey from a gymnast at the University of Minnesota to a respected judge, offering insights into the crucial yet frequently overlooked financial responsibilities that come with being a sports official.

We tackle the nitty-gritty of tax r...

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I had the pleasure of being a guest on the High Kicks Podcast. The discussion was fun and informative. I had a blast talking about what I love about being a ref and the challenges of being an official in the beautiful game. 

The episode ventures into the world of professional refereeing, where the pressure is immense and errors are an inevitable part of the job. We offered a compelling look at the human side of officiating, recognizing the split-second decisions referees must make and the scrutiny they face, even with technological a...

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Jan Ter Hamsel, the creator behind the influential Dutch Referee Blog (dutchreferee.com & @dutchreferee on Instagram), offers a unique look into the life and development of soccer referees around the globe. Join us as Jan shares the inspiration behind his blog, which has grown into an educational hub for referees seeking both personal and professional growth. He contrasts the robust training and development pathways available in the Netherlands with the limited opportunities faced by grassroots referees in the United States, emphasizing the role of continuous education and dedication in improving officiating skills.

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