Marketecture: Get Smart. Fast.
The Marketecture Podcast is hosted by industry experts Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi. Every Friday they publish an interview with an important thinker in the advertising and marketing industries, and cover that week's most important news. Every Monday there's an in-depth vendor interview where you learn about interesting companies. https://www.marketecture.tv
Episode 162: Eric Seufert on the SaaS-pocolypse, Meta’s Manus, and AppLovin’s Social Network
Eric Seufert (Mobile Dev Memo) joins Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi for a wide-ranging conversation on the future of apps, AI agents, walled gardens, and the shifting power dynamics in digital advertising. They dive into the so-called “SaaS-pocalypse” and discuss whether AI agents could replace apps entirely. They also discuss Apple’s emerging AI gatekeeping strategy (and what it means for developers), Meta’s acquisition of Manus and the automation of advertising, and AppLovin’s reported ambitions to build a social network from scratch. Along the way, they explore whether independent ad tech can survive in a world dominated by Meta an...
Episode 161: The State of AI with eMarketer’s Nate Elliott
Nate Elliott, Principal Analyst at eMarketer, joins Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi to talk through what’s actually happening with AI adoption in marketing and commerce. He shares a practical view on how many consumers actively use AI tools, why usage stats are often misleading, and why most AI influence on shopping still happens outside chatbots. The group also digs into GEO and AEO, agency and CMO priorities, and the growing debate over content licensing and the health of the open web.
Takeaways
Only about 15–20% of US online consumers use AI tools weekly, desp...Episode 160: Matthew Egol on Why We Need an AI-Specific Industry Association
Matthew Egol, Founder & CEO of JourneySpark Consulting, joins Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi to break down agentic advertising and what AdCP means for the industry, from AI’s Super Bowl moment to standards governance, Prebid collaboration, IAB alignment, and how AI agents are reshaping planning, creative, and measurement across marketing.
Takeaways
AI took over the Super Bowl, with roughly a quarter of ads tied to AI. Agentic advertising expands from buying to planning, discovery, and measurement. AgenticAdvertising.org focuses on standards, governance, and certification. Prebid runs the sell-side AdCP code while AAO drives th...Episode 159: Bob Lord of Horizon on How Indie Agencies Compete
Bob Lord, President of Horizon Media, joins Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi to talk about why independent agencies can move faster, how Horizon OS is built around an open partner ecosystem, and how AI is changing day to day agency work. They also cover Blu ID, performance-based pricing, the LLM ad debate, and key takeaways from IAB ALM.
Takeaways
Indie agencies move faster because they don’t carry legacy tech and data debt. Horizon OS keeps the stack open so brands can swap partners as needed. Blu ID links Horizon’s identity to clie...Ari Paparo on the Era of Outcomes in Digital Advertising at Marketecture Live
Ari Paparo explains why outcomes have become the defining metric in digital advertising, how AI and platform consolidation are reshaping the buy and sell sides, and what the decline of the open web means for marketers, publishers, and ad tech moving forward.
Takeaways
Outcomes have always existed in digital advertising, but pressure on CMOs has made measurable results unavoidable. Closed loop platforms outperform the open web because scale, identity, and measurement live in one system. Experimentation and advanced modeling are replacing traditional attribution as cookies disappear. AI agents may reduce fragmentation by automating...Episode 158: Rajeev Goel Is Making Agentic Advertising a Reality
Rajeev Goel, CEO of PubMatic, joins Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi to discuss how agentic AI and AdCP are reshaping the media buying process, collapsing the ad tech value chain, and creating new opportunities for publishers and advertisers to compete with walled gardens.
Takeaways
Agentic AI can automate planning, buying, and optimization beyond today’s DSP workflows.
PubMatic’s AgenticOS lets advertisers transact through AI agents using AdCP.
AI efficiency may grow digital ad spend and shift more ROI budgets to the open internet.
Seller agents and...
Episode 157: Marketing Ad Tech in 2026 with Paul Knegten
Paul Knegten draws on his experience as a former Beeswax CMO and long-time ad tech marketer to explain what actually works in marketing as the industry heads into 2026. The conversation covers AI hype versus real value, why founder voice matters more than positioning decks, how buyers actually make decisions, and the difference between a marketing problem and a real business problem. Paul also breaks down where ad tech companies lose the plot when talking to brands and agencies, and why relevance beats buzz every time. Takeaways
AI does not fix weak positioning and only works when it solves...Episode 156: Does quality really matter? Erez Levin weighs in
Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi are joined by Erez Levin, a former Googler who focuses on media and inventory quality. They dig into what “quality” really means in programmatic advertising, why short-term outcomes can be misleading, and how incentive structures have pushed spend toward lower-value impressions.
Takeaways
Quality is best understood through effectiveness, but most measurement overweights short-term signals. “Not all impressions are created equal.” quality varies by context, format, and goal. Video definition loopholes led to premium pricing for lower-attention formats and contributed to market confusion. MFA, SPO, and curation are connected symptoms of...Tim and Chris Vanderhook on Viant’s Lattice Brain: How Autonomous Advertising Beats Human Traders
From CES, Ari Paparo talks with Co-founder and CEO Tim Vanderhook and Co-founder and COO Chris Vanderhook of Viant about what automation looks like in a DSP workflow, using Viant’s Lattice Brain and Outcomes as the framing. They cover how goal-based optimization is set up (CPA/ROAS), what they observed in tests comparing automated and human-managed campaigns, and why “decision latency” is a recurring issue in day-to-day programmatic execution.Â
Takeaways
They describe Outcomes as a goal-based workflow where an advertiser provides key inputs and the system handles ongoing optimization decisions. The guests share r...Episode 155: Ari Missed CES, but Eric and AI Were There. Plus, Mike Khristo Creates Marketing Plans from GitHub
Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi break down the biggest themes coming out of CES and across ad tech. Ari speaks with Mike Khristo, CEO of Layers, about turning code directly into customers, automating marketing for developers, and how vibe coding is enabling a new wave of profitable niche apps. Ari and Eric then cover AI-powered ad platforms, agentic buying and selling, and major industry announcements from Walmart, Viant, Reddit, Amazon, and The Trade Desk.
Takeaways
Layers automates marketing for developers who lack marketing skills.
Vibe coding allows non-professionals to create viable apps.
<...Inside Walmart Connect: From Retail Media to Full-Funnel Performance with Khurrum Malik
Walmart Connect has quickly evolved from a search-driven retail media platform into a full-funnel advertising powerhouse. In this episode, Ari Paparo sits down with Khurrum Malik, VP of Business and Product Marketing at Walmart Connect, to unpack how Walmart is combining on-site search, off-site media, CTV via Vizio, and closed-loop measurement to spark real sales impact.
Khurrum shares why he joined Walmart Connect, how “couch to cart” is becoming a reality, what performance TV means for emerging advertisers, and why incrementality is the new gold standard for retail media. The conversation also previews Walmart Conn...
Playwire with Jayson Dubin: Human Intelligence vs Machine Learning in AdTech at Marketecture Live
On Marketecture Live, Jayson Dubin, CEO and Founder of Playwire, explains how publishers can grow revenue and improve performance by combining machine learning with human intelligence. He shares concrete results from AI-driven traffic shaping and price floor optimization, walks through Playwire’s Quality, Performance, Transparency (QPT) initiative, and discusses major ecosystem issues like supply chain opacity, malicious ads, and the shifting realities of AI-driven discovery. He also introduces RAMP, Playwire’s Revenue Amplification Management Platform, built to give enterprise publishers control, visibility, and optional AI automation. Takeaways
AI is best for repetitive, rapid decisions; humans are best for cont...Episode 154: Marketecture Wrapped: Predictions, Year-in-Review, and Shout-Outs from Eric and Ari
In this episode, Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi reflect on the past year in ad tech and discuss their predictions from the previous year, the growth of Marketecture, and the biggest news stories in the industry. They highlight key CEOs and companies, explore current trends, and make predictions for the upcoming year, particularly focusing on the impact of AI and the evolving landscape of CTV advertising.
Takeaways
Our audience was up 200% year over year on Spotify. This year was the year of strategic M&A in ad tech. AI tools were rolled out...PayPal Open Commerce with Dr. Mark Grether: Retail Media, Agentic Commerce at Marketecture Live
Dr. Mark Grether, SVP & General Manager, PayPal, unpacks how PayPal is reshaping commerce media by leveraging its transaction graph across 30 million merchants and 400 million consumers at Marketecture Live. From democratizing retail media for SMBs to monetizing Venmo’s social feed and enabling agentic commerce with trusted payments, this conversation explores why PayPal sits at the center of advertising, AI, and the future of buying online.
Takeaways
PayPal’s transaction graph spans 30 million merchants and 400 million consumers, giving it a horizontal view that powers audience targeting, market share insights, and closed-loop measurement. The new SMB Ads Manager unif...Episode 153: Scott Spencer invented RTB, now he’s taking on cookie banners
Scott Spencer, co-founder of Rewarded Interest and former DoubleClick and Google product leader, explains why cookie banners failed, how consumer privacy still feels broken, and what it takes to give users real control without hurting publishers or advertisers.
Takeaways
RTB wasn’t invented in a single moment. It emerged organically as multiple teams solved latency, bidding, and scale problems in parallel. Cookie banners fail both consumers and regulators by creating friction without real control or understanding. Rewarded Interest aims to replace site-by-site consent with centralized, programmatic privacy preferences across devices. Privacy control likely be...Programmatic Innovation in Live Sports with Andrew Casale and Megan Pagliuca at Marketecture Live
Andrew Casale, CEO, Index Exchange, and Megan Pagliuca, Chief Product Officer, Omnicom Media Group, unpack how live sports and streaming are becoming more addressable through programmatic, why new standards are fixing real-time “spike” problems, and how sell-side decisioning and AI-driven curation could reshape efficiency and fees across the open internet.
Takeaways
Live sports are becoming truly addressable through programmatic. Targeting is shifting to moment-level signals, not broad demos. Standards like podding and advanced ad requests reduce live break spikes. Pre-fetching and smarter pacing keep delivery stable. Sell-side decisioning now happens earlier and faster. That...Episode 152: Jim Payne is back! His new SDK lets you control monetization with AI
Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi sit down with MoPub and MAX founder Jim Payne to unpack his new company CloudX, how “monetization as code” lets mobile publishers manage their entire ad stack in files that AI can edit, why he teamed up with Meta on a secure auction using trusted execution environments, and what all of this means for SDK complexity, mobile vs desktop, AppLovin, performance TV, retail media, and the next wave of ad tech.
Takeaways
CloudX lets mobile publishers manage their ad stack as code. Jim built CloudX with Meta to powe...Meta Advantage+ & Incrementality: Findings From 640 Tests with Olivia Kory at Marketecture Live
Olivia Kory, Chief Strategy Officer from Haus, walks through an 18-month review of 640 incrementality tests run by Haus to compare Meta’s Advantage+ campaigns with manual setups. She explains the shift from hands-on targeting to AI-led buying, why incrementality matters more than platform-reported conversions, and how Geolift holdouts estimate true lift without user-level data. The results show a strong overall impact from Meta, but mixed performance from Advantage+ versus manual, along with signs that mid-funnel optimization can change outcomes. She ends with practical cautions on interpreting automation results and the need to test by brand.
...
Episode 151: How Publishers Can Get Paid for AI, with Matthew Goldstein
Matthew Goldstein joins Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi to break down how AI is reshaping publishing, why traffic declines are less scary than content theft, and what it will take for publishers to get paid in an agentic future. They dig into licensing deals, bot blocking, Microsoft’s content marketplace, and the idea of a real-time exchange for fresh, metadata-rich articles. The conversation also hits Google’s growing advantage, OpenAI’s code-red moment, and what all of this means for ads, agencies, and where digital media revenue goes next.
Takeaways
Publishers are more focused on getting compen...CTV Ads 2025: Proving Outcomes Beyond Impressions with Jenny Wall at Marketecture Live
Jenny Wall from VideoAmp joins Ari Paparo to unpack why CTV measurement has to evolve past impressions and demos. They dig into outcomes, advanced audiences, clean room data, and the growing need for multiple currencies across linear, streaming, and walled gardens. Expect practical examples, a clear case for audience first buying, and a candid look at what happens if the industry stays locked to legacy metrics.
Takeaways
TV works, but modern measurement must prove business outcomes instead of just delivery. Advanced audiences reduce waste and can lift sales by focusing on the right households. Cross channel...Episode 150: Thanksgiving Mailbag. Listeners ask questions, Eric and Ari give answers
Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi discuss a variety of topics, ranging from the latest developments in the Google trial to the implications of AI in advertising. They provide insights on consulting strategies for data companies, share their personal pizza preferences, and explore the future of marketing mix models. The conversation also touches on job security in ad tech, the impact of media personalities on careers, and the cultural significance of Thanksgiving side dishes.
Takeaways
The Google trial's outcome may not favor a spin-out. Data companies should focus on use cases rather than just...Bayer’s Alexis Gossard & Lisa Perez Reveal the One A Day Brand Transformation at Marketecture Live
At Marketecture Live, Alexis Gossard, Senior Manager of Media Strategy at Bayer, and Lisa Perez, General Manager for Pain/Cardio/Derm and Nutritionals, discuss the recent shift in strategy behind the One A Day brand. They outline how the team revisited brand fundamentals, updated the visual identity, refined audience-specific messaging, and adjusted the media approach across video, social, retail, and emerging channels. The conversation offers a clear look at the decision-making process, cross-functional collaboration, and early learnings from the brand’s updated direction.
Takeaways
Bayer Consumer Health aims to reach more households.
The mi...
Episode 149: Steven Liss of OpenAds on AI start-up, AdCP, UCP, and how The Trade Desk stole his name
Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi sit down with Steven Liss, CEO of OpenAds, to discuss the company’s shift from placing ads inside AI chat to using AI to transform display advertising. They explore why contextual intelligence is gaining new traction, how AI-generated creative performs in practice, and what the new IAB standards AdCP and UCP signal for the future of programmatic buying. The conversation also covers the challenges of embedding interoperability, the complexities of building an AI native DSP, and how agencies are adopting creative generation tools.
Takeaways
Ads inside AI chat are constrained by...
Inside AWS’s RTB Fabric: Sergio Serra on Reinventing Ad Tech Infrastructure
Ari Paparo sits down with Sergio Serra, PM Lead for RTB Fabric at AWS, to explore how Amazon is transforming the foundations of programmatic advertising. They break down how RTB Fabric eliminates data egress costs, improves latency through deterministic routing, and introduces a per-billion transaction model built specifically for ad tech. Recorded at Marketecture, this conversation reveals how AWS is creating purpose-built infrastructure for SSPs and DSPs, the power of modular services like real-time throttling and OpenRTB filtering, and why Fabric might redefine the economics of ad exchanges.
Takeaways
RTB Fabric removes...
Episode 148: Paul Bannister Shares Research on How Consumers Feel About AI-Generated Content
Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi sit down with Paul Bannister, Chief Strategy Officer of Raptive, unpack new research on how audiences respond to AI-written content, why trust changes depending on labeling and experience, and what shifting traffic patterns mean for publishers. The conversation moves from consumer behavior to the realities of the open web, the role of strong brands, and how AI tools are reshaping ad operations.
Takeaways
Readers trust AI content less when labeling is unclear.
Suspicion of AI drops trust more than actual AI writing.
People...
From D2C to CTV: Nik Sharma and James Borow on Reinventing TV Advertising at Marketecture Live
Nik Sharma, CEO, Sharma Brands, and James Borow, VP, Product & Engineering, Comcast, explore how direct-to-consumer performance tactics are transforming traditional TV advertising. Recorded at Marketecture Live, they discuss the rise of real-time measurement, the merging of walled gardens and open web ecosystems, and how Universal Ads is making TV as accessible and data-driven as social platforms. The conversation highlights creative testing, AI’s growing role in production, and what marketers need to unlearn to thrive in the next phase of connected TV.
Takeaways
Direct-to-consumer brands are driving a shift toward more measurable, pe...
Episode 147: Mathieu Roche on the TrueData Acquisition and the Modern Market for Identity
Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi are joined by Mathieu Roche, CEO of ID5, to discuss the recent acquisition of TrueData and its implications for the identity market. They explore the integration of identity graphs and IDs, the challenges of maintaining privacy and data security, and the evolving landscape of identity solutions. The conversation also touches on the importance of match rates, the role of identity in advertising, and the future of identity technology.
Takeaways
ID5's acquisition of TrueData aims to enhance identity solutions by integrating identity graphs with IDs. The acquisition increases ID5's staff...Luke Schoenberger on Simplifying Publisher Ad Tech with Playwire’s Wrapper
Ari Paparo interviews Luke Schoenberger, Executive Vice President of Product Engineering at Playwire. They discuss Playwire's role as a major sales house for publishers, the development of a custom wrapper for ad monetization, and the challenges and opportunities in the display advertising landscape. Luke shares insights on the transition to in-app monetization, the competitive advantages of Playwire's offerings, and the future of display advertising amidst changing market dynamics.
Takeaways
Playwire is one of the largest sales houses in the industry.
They provide a simple integration for publishers to monetize their...
Episode 146: Terry Kawaja Lets Loose on the Marketecture Live Stage
Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi recap the highlights from Marketecture Live II, discussing the event's success, key speaker insights, and upcoming plans for the next event. They delve into recent earnings reports from major tech companies, including Meta and Google, analyzing market trends and the implications of Google's antitrust cases.
The conversation also covers PayPal's partnership with OpenAI for payments on ChatGPT, and features a segment with Terry Kawaja, who shares his thoughts on the future of AI in advertising and the evolving landscape of ad tech. Takeaways
Marketecture Live II was a sold-out success with...Jackie Paulino on How Pixability’s “Pixie” Uses AI Agents to Transform YouTube Advertising
Pixability Chief Product Officer Jackie Paulino joins Ari Paparo to discuss how their new AI agent, Pixie, is revolutionizing YouTube ad curation. Discover how Pixability combines data, agentic AI, and human insight to enhance performance, ensure brand safety, and navigate the world of AI-generated video content.
Takeaways
Pixability introduces Pixie, its first agentic AI tool for YouTube ad curation. Pixie moves beyond GenAI by making decisions and taking actions. Data from years of YouTube experience drives Pixability’s advantage. AI handles 80% of the work, leaving creativity to humans. AI-generated video brings new brand sa...Episode 145: The current state of digital B2B with Scott Stedman of Imaginarium
Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi sit down with Scott Stedman, founder and CEO of The Imaginarium, to unpack how business-to-business marketing is changing. They discuss the evolution of account-based marketing, the move toward more flexible and data-driven strategies, and why distinctiveness, not just differentiation, is what makes brands stand out.
Takeaways
ABM is shifting from single platforms to flexible, modular systems.
Distinctiveness matters more than differentiation in B2B.
Connected TV and Reddit are new frontiers for account-based marketing.
Authentic leadership can be a powerful brand...
Stephen Yap on Perion One, AI Integration, and the Future of Cross-Channel Advertising
Ari Paparo interviews Steven Yap, the Global Chief Revenue Officer of Perion Network, during Advertising Week in New York. They discuss the evolution of Perion, the launch of Perion One, and the importance of unifying technology in advertising. The conversation delves into the role of AI in optimizing marketing strategies, the future of CMOs as portfolio managers, and the state of the open web. The episode concludes with quickfire questions that highlight Perion's competitive advantages and challenges. Takeaways
Perion has evolved to unify multiple technologies under Perion One. AI serves as the connective tissue for optimizing advertising strategies. ...Episode 144: Rich Greenfield on the State of Dying Media and What’s Going on with Paramount
Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi speak with Rich Greenfield from LightShed Ventures about the state of traditional and digital media. They discuss Paramount’s evolving strategy, Larry Ellison’s growing role in media and technology, TikTok’s U.S. restructuring, and The Trade Desk’s Ventura OS. The conversation also touches on how AI and new ad protocols may reshape advertising and what these shifts mean for the broader media landscape.
Takeaways
Legacy media struggles with tech execution Larry Ellison connects media, capital, and AI TikTok’s U.S. setup eases advertiser uncertainty Ventura OS...SSPs Beyond “Pipes”: OpenX’s Matt Sattel on the Future of Curation, SPO, and AI
Ari Paparo talks with OpenX CRO Matt Sattel about how supply-side platforms are evolving in 2025, from simple “pipes” to intelligent systems focused on quality, transparency, and outcomes. They discuss trends shaping the ecosystem, including curation, data-driven SPO, MFA, and request duplication, as well as the growing influence of AI and automation. The conversation also looks at the challenges of operating in a two-sided marketplace and why agility and accountability matter more than ever.
Takeaways
OpenX positions itself as a “smart pipe,” emphasizing innovation and quality over raw scale.
SPO should be data...
Episode 143: Omar Tawakol on Using AI to Scale Product Placement
Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi speak with Omar Tawakol, CEO of Rembrand, about how artificial intelligence is influencing advertising and media. They explore the role of virtual product placement, its implications for creators and publishers, and how automation is shifting the ways audiences engage with content. The conversation also covers broader industry movements—from The Trade Desk’s evolving strategy to Amazon’s DSP and emerging ad networks from PayPal and Amex—offering perspective on the changing dynamics of attention and monetization.
Takeaways
Consumers are seeking fewer interruptions, pushing brands toward more natural ad integrations.
<...Episode 142: What’s Going on with the Google Remedies Trial
In this session, Eric Franchi, Alan Chapell, and Ari Paparo discuss the Google remedies antitrust trial. They also cover OpenAI’s approach to monetization and Amazon’s recent collaborations with Spotify and Netflix. Takeaways
The trial highlights whether behavioral fixes are enough or if divestiture is needed. Google once considered selling ADX, complicating its defense. OpenAI looks set to lean on ads and commerce for growth. Trade Desk and Amazon are both pushing harder for control of supply.Chapters
00:00Â Updates on Marketecture Live 00:03Â Google remedies trial overview 00:10Â ADX divestiture debate 00:20Â Publisher testimony and impact 00:28Â OpenAI and ads 00...Episode 141: The State of Pharma Advertising with Josh Walsh of BranchLab
Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi speak with Josh Walsh, founder and CEO of BranchLab, about how pharmaceutical advertising is changing. The discussion covers BranchLab’s use of neural networks with non-health data, the impact of new privacy regulations, and recent funding from Lance Armstrong’s Next Ventures. The conversation also touches on Deep Intent’s acquisition, ongoing federal policy debates, and the broader implications for healthcare marketing.
Takeaways
BranchLab’s Model: Neural networks trained on non-health data can help address privacy concerns while enabling audience insights. Funding Story: Next Ventures, led by Lance Armstron...Episode 140: What is publisher data really worth? With Arcspan’s Art Muldoon
In this episode of the Marketecture Podcast, hosts Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi engage with Art Muldoon, Co-Founder of ArcSpan, to discuss the changing landscape of publisher data in ad tech. They explore topics such as leveraging AI to scale first-party data, the evolving future of the open web, and the intricacies of curation and transaction IDs (TIDs), emphasizing how publishers can regain control and succeed in a dynamic environment. The latter part of the episode covers industry updates, including mergers and acquisitions, shifts in DSPs, AI-driven creative tools, legal challenges facing Google, and the completion of the TikTok...
Episode 139: Lisa Utzschneider on carbon, attention, AI, and why being the CEO is fun!
In this episode, Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi talk with Lisa Utzschneider, CEO of Integral Ad Science (IAS), about the latest shifts in digital advertising. They explore how the industry is moving from simple verification toward performance, why metrics like attention and carbon are getting more attention, what AI is doing behind the scenes, and how retail media and streaming are changing the game. Along the way, they dig into trust, complexity, and what brands really care most about today.
Takeaways
IAS has moved beyond verification, focusing on performance and transparency. Â Attention and carbon are part o...Inside B2B Data and Sales Enablement with Ajit Thupil, CPO of Bombora
In this conversation, Ari Paparo interviews Ajit Thupil, Chief Product Officer of Bombora, discussing the unique challenges and strategies in B2B marketing. They explore how Bombora leverages data to enhance sales and marketing efforts, the importance of audience targeting, and the evolving role of AI in the industry. Ajit shares insights on the competitive landscape and the significance of understanding the distinct nature of B2B compared to B2C marketing.
Takeaways
Bombora focuses on the P2P space, serving sales and marketing needs.
B2B marketing involves long and complex sales...