Upzoned

Join Abby and guest John Pattison as they dive into the benefits and drawbacks of "sponge cities," cities that incorporate natural features like wetlands into their stormwater management infrastructure. Is this method more resilient in the long term? Do the benefits outweigh the massive cost? How does this relate to the incremental, bottom-up approach? They’ll cover all this and more in today’s episode of Upzoned.

“‘Sponge City’: Copenhagen Adapts to a Wetter Future” by Paul Hockenos, Yale Environment 360 (July 2025).

Abby Newsham (X/Twitter).

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom.

Data centers power everything from cloud computing to artificial intelligence, and they use a massive amount of electricity, sometimes even rivaling major cities. Watchdogs claim that tech companies aren’t absorbing the costs of this electricity use, causing rate payers’ electricity bills to spike as they’re forced to subsidize these data centers. Today, Edward and Abby discuss the far-reaching implications of this kind of land use.

“As electric bills rise, evidence mounts that data centers share blame. States feel pressure to act.” by Marc Levy, AP News (August 2025).

Want to bring the conver...

Colorado's population is rapidly aging. Soon, one in five people in the state will be be over 65 years old. Limited housing stock means seniors are stuck in too-large homes that they can’t afford to maintain. In turn, that means there’s fewer large homes for younger families who need them.

Today, Abby is joined by Katy Clagett, an incremental developer originally from Colorado who’s working to develop infill housing options for seniors. They discuss what Colorado’s situation means for communities and how we can reshape housing to be more adaptable to the needs of all age...

In January 2025, wildfires swept across Los Angeles with record-breaking destruction. To encourage swift rebuilding, Governor Newsom suspended environmental regulations. But six months later, only a fraction of homeowners have even received permits, let alone started the rebuilding process. Chuck is joined by Edward Erfurt, Strong Towns’ chief technical advisor, to talk about why, as well as the deeper challenges of rebuilding in fire-prone areas.

“Why it’s taking LA so long to rebuild” by Umair Irfan, Vox (July 2025).

Want to bring the conversation to your community? Book Chuck or Edward as a speaker...

In Lincoln County, South Dakota, a growing agriculture company is being charged $50,000 annually for wear and tear on township roads caused by the company's trucks and machinery.

Abby and Edward discuss the balancing act between infrastructure costs and municipal budgets, especially in rural areas with few taxpayers. They explore the public process behind this kind of decision and offer suggestions on how it could be improved.

“Milk facility to pay $50,000 for road use” by Rae Yost, KELOLAND (July 2025).

Want to bring the conversation to your community? Book Edward as a spea...

Sunbelt cities like Phoenix, Dallas, and Atlanta have long prided themselves on having affordable and abundant housing. However, they’re now seeing stagnation in housing construction and rapidly rising costs. Today, Abby is joined by Rachel Leonardo, a trained architect and Strong Towns’ video creator, to discuss how rigid single-use zoning has locked cities into expensive fragility. They explore whether these cities can course correct and how they could become more resilient and prosperous in the long-term.

Here are 6 simple ways to make housing more affordable in your community.

“Sprawl made the Americ...

Today, Abby is joined by Bernice Radle, a small-scale developer and historic building preservationist from Buffalo, New York. They cover two developing stories: First, a new bill was proposed that would give the Buffalo housing court more power to sell or repair buildings taken from absentee or negligent landlords. Second, the Historic Preservation Fund is currently at risk.

Bernice and Abby discuss how these changes could affect small-scale developers and historic preservationists. Bernice also explores how these two fields are closely linked and should work together to save urban spaces.

“Proposed bill wo...

Residents of Boca Chica, Texas, have voted to turn their community into a new official city called Starbase. This new municipality is tightly controlled by SpaceX leadership and most residents are SpaceX employees, which has raised concerns about the reemergence of company towns.

In this Upzoned episode, Abby is joined by our Chief Technical Advisor Edward Erfurt to discuss the Strong Towns perspective on this story.

“Elon Musk’s company town: SpaceX employees vote to create ‘Starbase’” by Nick Robins-Early, The Guardian (May 2025).

Abby Newsham (X/Twitter).

Theme Music by K...

As of the 2023-24 academic year, the University of California faces $9.1 billion in deferred maintenance, while California State University faces $8.3 billion. In today’s episode, Chuck and Abby explore how this problem arose, how it mirrors the challenges cities are facing, and what it'll take to manage this decline.

“Inside a $17 billion maintenance backlog plaguing California’s universities” by Victoria Mejicanos, Matthew Reagan and Mercy Sosa, CalMatters (April 2025).

Learn more about the Growth Ponzi Scheme and how to evaluate your own city’s financial position.

Abby Newsham (X/Twitter).

Chuck Ma...

President Trump has proposed the privatization of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, organizations that back the majority of mortgages in the U.S. and have been under a government conservatorship since the 2008 financial crisis. In this Upzoned episode, Chuck and Abby discuss the proposal and how it would affect the housing market.

“How Trump plans to get government out of the mortgage business” by Paige Sutherland and Meghna Chakrabarti, WBUR On Point (March 2025).

Abby Newsham (X/Twitter).

Chuck Marohn (Substack)

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom.

In this Upzoned episode, Abby is joined by Strong Towns Chief Technical Advisor Edward Erfurt to discuss the emergence of food deserts in the United States. In the 1980s, the U.S. government stopped enforcing price discrimination laws, letting large supermarkets use their size to leverage better prices from suppliers. This led to the closure of many small, independent groceries and helped create today's food deserts.

Abby and Edward discuss the shift from grocery stores being neighborhood assets to regional destinations and how that extracts wealth from communities. Then they share bottom-up ways that everyday people can...

Co-hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn discuss the challenges faced by Victoria, Prince Edward Island, a town in Canada that only has 139 full-time residents. In an attempt to attract new residents, the town has adopted its first five-year development plan.

Chuck and Abby talk about how very small towns like Victoria show the absurdities of the Suburban Experiment best — and feel its consequences most keenly. They explore what the future could look like for communities like this and emphasize the importance of embracing the things that make a specific town special instead of trying to copy suburban su...

Residents of a neighborhood in Colorado are confronting a $434 million debt incurred by their community’s special taxing district, which was set up by developers to finance the neighborhood’s infrastructure. A group of neighbors are now organizing to take control of the district’s board and try to bring transparency to the financial situation.

In today’s episode of Upzoned, Abby is joined by Edward Erfurt, Strong Towns’ chief technical advisor. They discuss how using special taxing districts to fund developments is a common practice, how it leads to snowballing debt, and how difficult it is for reside...

The U.S. senior housing market is poised to shift from a surplus to a shortage in the next five years, as the oldest baby boomers turn 80 by 2030. In this Upzoned episode, Abby is joined by Norm Van Eeden Petersman, Strong Towns’ director of Movement Building. They unpack the implications of this market shift and discuss what building more options for older adults could look like.

“Aging Boomers Are About to Rekindle the Senior-Housing Market” by Peter Grant, The Wall Street Journal (February 2025).

Read more:

“Seniors Have Large Suburban Houses To Sell...

In this episode, Abby is joined by Chicago aldermen Matt Martin and Andre Vasquez to discusses the Western Avenue corridor study, one of the most ambitious planning efforts Chicago has seen in decades. It includes widespread rezoning reform, and it also addresses affordable housing, economic vitality and transit efficiency. The aldermen share their approach to rezoning, emphasizing the importance of a community-first approach.

“Let’s fix Western Avenue and make Chicago stronger” by Aaron Feldman, Chicago Tribune (June 2024).

There are 6 easy code reforms that city officials can use to bring more housing to the...

In 2021, Massachusetts signed a law requiring communities that are served by the Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority (MBTA) to legalize multifamily housing development near MBTA transit stations. Recently, a state court ruled that the state has the authority to sue cities and towns that don’t comply.

In this episode of Upzoned, Abby and Chuck discuss whether that’s a good idea, the broader trend of states intervening in city zoning practices, and how the root issue is actually poor transportation investment practices.

“Court Ruling Paves the Way For State to Sue Towns With E...

In California, many major insurers have recently dropped homeowners in high risk areas from their plans, forcing them to seek alternate coverage with the state. However the state has nowhere near enough money to cover current property damage costs, a situation that will likely get worse as wildfires continue to burn.

In this episode of Upzoned, co-hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn discuss the impact of natural disasters on the insurance industry, the feasibility of government-run insurance programs, and what this might mean for California in the long term.

Support Southern California...

In this episode of Upzoned, host Abby Newsham is joined by Kevin Klinkenberg, an urban designer, planner and executive director of a place management organization. They discuss how a middle-class life — especially homeownership — has become increasingly difficult for younger generations to attain. They also cover the factors that contribute to this difficulty and possible responses.

“Is a Middle Class Life Still Attainable?” by Tom Owens, Aaron Renn Substack (December 2024).

Read more from Kevin Klinkenberg on Strong Towns or his Substack The Messy City.

Abby Newsham (X/Twitte...

In this episode of Upzoned, co-hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn talk about satellite communities — towns that are developed a distance away from existing urbanized areas. They also discuss the psychological phenomena that incline people toward big projects that may solve an immediate issue (such as housing) but will cause larger difficulties later on (such as maintenance debt).

“Tewin's $590M infrastructure bill locks in 'forever sprawl,' councillor says” by Arthur White-Crummey, CBC Ottawa (June 2024).

Abby Newsham (X/Twitter).

Chuck Marohn (Twitter/X).

Canada needs an additional 3.5 million housing units by 2030, and that means Canadian cities — as well as many others throughout North America — are facing the challenge of building more housing without wasting natural resources like mature trees. In this episode of Upzoned, co-hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn discuss this balancing act, the high value that trees bring to a community, and why sacrificing “urban forests” for housing doesn’t have to mean sacrificing those trees.

“Can urban forests survive the housing boom?” by Hanna Hett, Canada’s National Observer (October 2024).

Abby Newsham (X/Twitter).

In this episode of Upzoned, host Abby Newsham is joined by Andrew Ganahl, managing partner of a real estate development company that specializes in urban infill housing. They discuss a Washington Post article about townhouses, exploring the benefits of this style of development and Ganahl’s own experiences with building townhouses in Kansas City.

“The new American Dream should be a townhouse” by Amanda Shendruk and Heather Long, The Washington Post (October 2024).

Andrew Ganahl (AND Real Estate site).

Abby Newsham (X/Twitter).

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom.

Post-COVID-19, there’s been a resurgence of interest in mixed-use neighborhoods, leading some cities to allow for small corner stores even in neighborhoods that are otherwise residential only.

In this Upzoned episode, host Abby Newsham is joined by Norm Van Eeden Petersman, the director of membership and development for Strong Towns. They discuss the role that small corner stores play in local economies, the benefits of allowing residents to continue using and creating these kinds of businesses, and how to talk to your local government about allowing this kind of use in your own community.

After the collapse of a Florida condo made national news in 2021, new safety regulations were enacted, requiring nearly 90% of Florida units to be updated. This left condo owners and buyers blindsided by a large backlog of deferred maintenance costs with no money saved to pay for them.

In this episode of Upzoned, co-hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn explain that this situation is an example of the Growth Ponzi Scheme, where maintenance costs are hidden by rapid growth until they eventually come due and bury people or communities in debt. They discuss the effect deferred maintenance has...

In this episode of Upzoned, host Abby Newsham is joined by John Anderson, a builder and developer in Georgia, to discuss the Strong Towns take on “urban homesteading,” where cities sell derelict houses to people for $1 in exchange for a promise to renovate the property and live there for a period of time.

“Can Selling Off Homes for $1 Solve Urban Blight?” by Rowan Bridge, BBC (October 2024).

Abby Newsham (X/Twitter).

Chuck Marohn (X/Twitter).

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom.

Editor's Note: We are deeply saddened to see the damage Hurricane Helene has done to Western North Carolina. Please see the additional notes for ways you can help.  

In this episode of Upzoned, co-hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn discuss managed retreat, where the federal government buys land from people to encourage them to move away from areas at high risk for natural disaster. According to the article, to actually move the necessary amount of people, the government needs to increase its efforts by a factor of 200.

Chuck and Abby talk about the issues with this method of...

The U.S. Department of Transportation has announced a national deployment plan of vehicle-to-everything (V2X) technology, a wireless communication tool that allows vehicles to transmit data on speed, location, road condition and other basic information. The DOT plans to implement this technology in 75% of the nation's intersections over the next decade or so.

In this episode of Upzoned, host Abby Newsham is joined by Strong Towns Director of Community Action Edward Erfurt. They discuss how V2X technology works, the challenges and risks of implementing it, and the alternatives that cities can use to increase safety...

In this episode of Upzoned, co-hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn discuss the article “Toward a New Way of Educating City Builders” by Seth Zeren, a founding member of Strong Towns. They discuss the many different disciplines that are responsible for shaping the built environment, the professional silos that often develop between these disciplines, and how a shift in management or the way people think about urban development as a whole could break down these barriers.

If you’d like to hear more of Zeren’s thoughts on city building, check out his appearances on The Bottom-Up Revoluti...

In this episode of Upzoned, host Abby Newsham is joined by small-scale developers Alli Quinlan and Bernice Radle. They discuss their experiences in the field of incremental development, how to make incremental development more feasible in your city, and the importance of encouraging women to become incremental developers.

Alli Quinlan (LinkedIn).

Bernice Radle (LinkedIn).

Abby Newsham (X/Twitter).

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom.

In this episode of Upzoned, co-hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn discuss a Wall Street Journal article titled “The American Dream Feels Out of Reach for Most.” They talk about how inflation and high housing costs can put the American Dream out of reach for many people, as well as the trade-offs that people may be forced to make between different life priorities, such as career fulfillment and homeownership. They also explore the importance of strong community relationships in finding happiness.

“The American Dream Feels Out of Reach for Most” by Rachel Wolfe, The Wall Str...

This week, Upzoned host Abby Newsham and The Messy City Podcast host Kevin Klinkenberg are working together in a special collaborative episode. They are joined by Jim Heid, a Californian landscape architect turned small-scale developer, to discuss the real estate profession and why he thinks it can solve a lot of modern problems.

Heid runs the Small Scale Developer Forum and has a new book called “Building Small: A Toolkit for Real Estate Entrepreneurs, Civic Leaders, and Great Communities.”

The Messy City Podcast.

Jim Heid (site).

Abby Newsham (X/Tw...

In this episode of Upzoned, co-hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn discuss the article “Huge Fire Trucks Are Making Us All Less Safe” by Collin Woodard. They talk about how North American fire trucks are unusual for their massive sizes, how accommodating such large trucks makes streets more dangerous and how fire departments could adapt to improve public safety.

Theme Music by Kemet the...

In this episode of Upzoned, co-hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn talk about the rapid population decline of children under five years old in large urban areas. They discuss the factors that can drive would-be urban families out of cities, how the rapidly declining population will affect services like schools and the importance of cities being able to accommodate diverse lifestyles in a dynamic way.

“The Urban Family Exodus Is a Warning for Progressives,” by Derek Thompson, The Atlantic (August 2024).

Abby Newsham (X/Twitter).

Chuck Marohn (Twitter/X).

Them...

In this episode of Upzoned, co-hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn talk about the Olympic Village that was built in Paris and what the city plans to do with the development now that the Games are over. They discuss the accusations of gentrification and greenwashing that Paris officials are facing, the challenges inherent in trying to complete large-scale, sustainable projects on a deadline, and lessons that both Paris and Los Angeles — which will be hosting the 2028 Games — can take from past hosts.

“Paris Hopes to Forge a New Model for Olympics-Oriented Development,” by Sam Levitt...

Indianapolis officials are encouraging residents to be involved in improving the city, both through fund-matching programs and by opening a lending library of tools and equipment to help residents start pilot projects.

In this Upzoned episode, co-hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn talk about how Indianapolis’ programs and initiatives are a great example of changing a city’s bureaucratic structure and processes to better meet residents’ needs. They discuss the growing pains that come with this kind of change and the necessity of officials and residents accepting failure as part of an incremental, experimental process.

In this episode of Upzoned, host Abby Newsham is joined by Jason Carter-Solomon, an incremental developer and commercial lender in Kansas City, to talk about financing small-scale development. They discuss the layers of risk that small-scale developers must navigate, and Solomon offers his perspective and advice on facing common challenges, such as dealing with entitlements and building inspectors.

Jason Carter-Solomon (LinkedIn).

Abby Newsham (X/Twitter).

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom.

This fall, seven states will have the opportunity to cut — or abolish, in some cases — property taxes, according to an article by Governing. In this episode of Upzoned, co-hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn discuss the Strong Towns perspective on property taxes, the consequences of removing them and how most people (including city officials) don’t realize how much it costs to run a city. Chuck emphasizes that Strong Towns is not anti-tax and that taxes are essential to successfully running any city.

“Voters in Several States Can Cut — or Abolish — Property Taxes This Fall” by Zin...

The governor of New York recently announced the dissolution of the city’s congestion pricing program after years of planning and hundreds of millions of dollars of investment. This program would’ve initiated a $15 toll on vehicles entering certain parts of Manhattan, and it was partly established to help support reinvestment in the transit system. It was shut down less than a month before it was supposed to start operating — after all the tolling infrastructure was already installed.

In this episode of Upzoned, Chuck and Abby discuss how this debacle shows a fundamental misunderstanding of congestion pricing, the po...

You’ve heard of YIMBYs and NIMBYs, but have you heard of YIGBYs? YIGBY stands for “Yes In God’s Backyard,” and it’s a movement focused on leveraging land owned by religious institutions to alleviate the housing crisis. This has the potential to benefit both people in need of housing and religious institutions.

In this episode of Upzoned, hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn discuss the potential benefits of the YIGBY movement, the practicalities of implementing it, and broader mindsets surrounding religious institutions and what their land should be used for.

“Yes in God’s...

This week on Upzoned, hosts Abby Newsham and Chuck Marohn discuss a recent article in the Wall Street Journal, “The Dollar-Store Showdown Comes Down to Real Estate.” It highlights the differences between Dollar General, which has stores located in mostly rural areas and is expanding its reach, and Family Dollar, which has stores located in mostly urban areas and is closing hundreds of stores.

Why is one of these companies succeeding while the other struggles? And what do dollar stores help or harm poor neighborhoods? Listen to this week’s episode to find out.

Incremental development is the most resilient and financially responsible way for communities to grow and improve. As North America struggles through a housing crisis, this style of development becomes increasingly important.

On this Upzoned episode, host Abby Newsham is joined by town builder Monte Anderson to talk about his experience as an incremental developer and the important principles of the field. Anderson is one of the founders of Incremental Development Alliance, which trains small-scale developers, and a managing partner of Neighborhood Evolution, a development consulting group.

Monte Anderson (site).

“From Gr...